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Episode 498 | Leadership Powered by Common Sense with Doug Thorpe | Guest: Jill Schulman
Introduction: Are You a Brave Leader?
Hey, are you a brave leader? Have you ever thought about that? And do you have the right definition of what being brave is really about? My guest today is going to help us really lean into that tricky area that, frankly, in my experience, a lot of people get wrong. So we’re going to dive in. My guest is a lady named Jill Schulman. Jill, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. We have — we have been looking forward to this for a long time. I think we’ve rescheduled a couple of times. So we finally get to have this conversation. I’m so excited.
I told Jill in the green room that inevitably, when there’s a phone tag kind of event going on — schedule, reschedule back and forth — inevitably, the show turns out really great. So again, I’ll say quickly now, Jill, no pressure. Let’s see what we can do. So first, give us a little bit of a backstory.
How did you get into this area and your focus right now that you’re helping people understand?
Meet Jill Schulman: From Marine to Bravery Expert
Yeah. Bravery like. Yeah. Like, what is the science of bravery and how on earth did you get into it? So I’d say bravery is this thread that has really been through all phases of my life. So very quickly started my career as a United States Marine. I was one of the first women ever to serve in the combat arm of combat engineering. So for me, kind of stepping forward into somewhat of a situation where there was some fear — that happened like early in my career and, as United States Marines, we learned to be brave because that’s just — that’s what our profession is.
So I started as a marine, and then when I made the move to corporate America after I got out of the Marine Corps after five years. And believe it or not, that was actually a really brave step — for all of you who have not served in the armed services, you might think, oh my gosh, it would be so hard to be in the military.
But I only knew the military because I was in ROTC in college, because I had a full scholarship, and then I just knew the Marine Corps. So whatever you don’t know becomes scary. So for me, actually making the leap to the civilian world was another one of those moves that required bravery. I spent 15 years in the health care industry — basically pharmaceutical, biotech, device, etc. — and I led sales, and I found as I was leading sales — I started in sales and I was in sales training when I was in sales leadership in the pharmaceutical industry. But I found that one of those things that was the differentiator between our most successful salespeople and the people who kind of struggle a little bit are those of my sales reps that were willing to ask the difficult conversations that made the physician a little bit uncomfortable about, like, how is the best way to treat patients? Or asking for the close.
So I found that, oh, you know, like in the Marine Corps, like, you know, bravery is so important for success and for us to accomplish our mission.
The Thread of Bravery Through Every Chapter
I found it was the same in doing our job in corporate America, at least in sales. And then I started my own leadership development business. So my last job in the pharmaceutical industry was actually doing leadership development in support of our biggest brand when I worked in a Fortune 100 company. When I started my own company and I go now, I think about leaders — what makes leaders the most effective. It’s the leaders that really set those bold, brave goals that are a little scary because we don’t know if we’re going to be able to achieve them. And the leaders who are brave enough to have difficult conversations and to deliver, you know, that constructive feedback that may be a little uncomfortable, but it’s going to help. It’s in the best service to that individual.
So you see, there’s just like this thread through — you know, bravery just seems to be this thread. And so when I went back to school five years ago and I studied positive psychology — which is the scientific study of elevating happiness and well-being in individuals, teams, organizations, and society — this is one area that I really explored. I found that fear was something that was the blocker to the highest levels of performance, happiness, and well-being. And when people learn to step toward what they fear and overcome it, it led to higher levels of success. So I think just there’s been like this thread — even though it sounds really different, like military, corporate, entrepreneur, and then going back to school and studying happiness — like what does it all have in common? But really bravery has been the thread.
Mindset: The Warrior’s Secret Weapon
Yeah. Well, in terms of chapters of life, you and I share much the same. And you’re right. I think being able to make those shifts — and fairly seismic shifts, if you will — it took a certain amount of courage to step in and say, I got this, I think I can do this. Not knowing anything about anything in the new opportunity, being able to stand up. And in some of your literature that you shared with me, there was a good bit of reference to mindset.
And many times, if I speak in front of a group, as soon as I speak the word mindset, I get some eye rolls and people go, oh, here we go again. I don’t need to do that. That’s woo woo. You know, we’re not going to go there, right? However, the ability as a leader to renew your mind — maybe change how you’re thinking about a fear or doubt in a moment that’s confronting you — actually makes or breaks the whole opportunity.
Yeah, it does. And as you said that, I was kind of chuckling to myself because I used to be that person, Doug, that I was in the audience. And if I hear mindset, I’m rolling my eyes going like, oh, this is like, you know, happy clappy, like rainbows and butterflies. So I used to be that person. But, you know, you can’t argue with science and evidence. So when I did research on what are the things that make people step forward in the presence of fear, it was undeniable.
Mindset is absolutely an indicator of us being brave. And so when I’m, you know, speaking on the science of bravery — so I do keynotes all over the world talking about this science — many times I reference someone, or not someone, but a group of people that no one would ever call woo woo. And these are Navy SEALs, because some of my friends that I still have today are Navy SEALs. And they say the number one thing that really is the indicator that someone can finish BUDs and earn the Trident and become a Navy SEAL is mindset. Are they mentally tough?
So what I call it from the stage now is I call it a warrior mindset because it makes it sound a little bit more — maybe it’s the cool factor — but I recognize that sometimes when you say mindset, people immediately shut down and not listen to you. So the reason I open it up is, a warrior mindset is — use the example from the Navy SEALs, but talk about what your beliefs are. Beliefs impact your actions, and bravery is all about taking a step forward in the presence of fear. And working on the cognitive side of bravery? It matters. So we have to work on mindset.
The Growth Mindset and the Power of “Yet”
So I’m just agreeing with you now. One thing I can say just to kind of make sure that I’m well-rounded in the research that I bring to you and your audience — mindset really matters. But I do get a little frustrated when I do hear certain people just talk about mindset only, and they talk about manifesting. And if you just see it in your mind and you keep saying a mantra, it will happen. And that is not true.
The only reason we do work on the cognitive side, the mindset side of performance is because it leads to action. So the action has to happen, you know. So, you know, if someone says like, oh, I’m going to be rich and I’m going to own a Lamborghini and I’m just going to sit in my room and keep throwing it out to the universe, but I’m not going to leave my room — it’s not going to happen. So mindset helps with action.
So as long as we’re talking, mindset helps us take a step forward in the presence of fear. I’m all for it and I teach it in my workshops to organizations.
I’m glad you brought that out. And I totally agree with you on that. The mindset is only one piece of the puzzle. It is a critical piece because how we think so we behave. And to your point, the idea is — when you get that mental vision of where you need to go — you got to put feet to it. You know, you have to take action. You have to put wheels in motion and get things going.
And the other side — and it’s interesting you brought up the Navy SEALs situation. I was thinking just recently, I had an opportunity to have a kind of an informal mini reunion with some of my college classmates, and we were in college ROTC military training, and we came together as a group of freshmen many, many years ago. And we became lifelong friends. And now we have a quarterly mini reunion we get together in — this past Saturday happened to be one of those.
And I was thinking after that, again, some of the stories and situations we reflected on. On one hand, our freshman year was arguably the toughest time in our life up to that point, because the burden and pressures of the training we were being given in the environment we were in — it took a mindset to overcome what was being dished out physically. And if your mind gave up, your spirit died. You could not endure what was being administered physically. But if you could think about it differently and realize that we can get through this, we can overcome this, this is just a temporary condition — it’s amazing what your body can do and respond to the pressures and the tensions that your body is fully capable of enduring.
Yeah, it is so true. And if I can — I am a scientific geek, so I just have to like, give the disclaimer here. Like, I sometimes maybe go overboard, but I think it’s really important to look at what is the research tell us, especially if anyone out there is kind of like rolling their eyes now.
And so as you say that I completely agree with you. So some of the research that I point to is Carol Dweck’s research on growth mindset. So there’s a simple one, right? You know, where someone might just say I’m just not a runner. Like maybe they’re in ROTC — like I just can’t do this Army ROTC or this Marine Corps ROTC. Like, I’m just not a runner. Now, that would be a fixed mindset. Carol Dweck talks about the difference in a fixed mindset, saying like it’s just not possible. Like my traits are fixed and there’s nothing I can do about it. So if you believe that it’s impossible for you to do something, then that belief makes you not even attempt to try.
But if you can shift your mindset from a fixed mindset to a growth mindset — Carol Dweck teaches, and I have this in my book — if you can just add this little word, “yet.” So instead of saying, “I’m not a runner,” you ask the person to say, “I’m not a runner yet.” What does that do? People realize, like, okay, I’m not a runner yet.
So it opens the door of possibility. It is possible for you to be a runner. It’s not going to be easy — it’s going to be probably hard if you’ve never run before. But it’s possible. And so when people shift from that fixed mindset to a growth mindset, they are more apt to persist because they believe it’s possible.
The Stress Mindset: A Counterintuitive Perspective
So I love citing Carol Dweck’s research — that is so foundational in the field of psychology. And also one other mindset I was just going to mention is — what is your mindset on stress? I absolutely love this — it’s more cutting edge research by Aleah Crum out of Stanford, and she’s really been studying the stress mindset.
So if people believe — if their mindset is that stress is bad and you should avoid it at all costs — and guess what? We’re going to encounter stress in life. Then when they encounter something that is stressful, they will have a negative stress response psychologically and physiologically. But if you can shift their mindset to believe that, you know, stress and challenges — this is what makes me grow and develop and get stronger. This is how I learn.
And when I feel that physiological stress, like my heart beating, you know, maybe racing — this is just my body preparing me to perform at my best. Like from an evolutionary standpoint, when I’m feeling stress, it means something’s important. So this is my body preparing me. So this little difference between how you view stress can have a significant impact in your success at work, especially if you encounter stress.
So like — these are little things — we call them interventions in psychology — if we can help you understand growth mindset, like, you know, it’s possible. And then on the road to developing the skill or learning how to run, you are going to encounter stress, right? But stress is enhancing — like these little changes in mindset cause people to really be able to take action and endure through the hard times. And there’s so much more on mindset too. But if I nerd out too much, everyone’s going to tune out.
So I’ll stop there.
Fear Is a Signal — Not a Stop Sign
Well, I was going to mention I had a guest on my show recently, a gentleman named Scott Motz, who wrote a book, The Mentally Strong Leader. And one of the key things he talks about in the mindset — I’ll show it in the little gratuitous plug there for Scott — but one of the things he talks about is not thinking you have to eliminate doubt, eliminate fear, eliminate caution. You have to look at your relationship with those. And it’s that dynamic of saying, fear doesn’t mean the end of the game. It doesn’t have to mean the end of the game. It’s a real human emotion. But what’s my relationship with it? Do I let it control me, or do I let it inform me?
It’s a signal. But I can decide how to interpret the signal and how to react. Yes. And you’ve probably heard — I think Zig Ziglar is the first one to say this — but you know, fear is false evidence appearing real. F.E.A.R. Right? I think a lot of people have said that after Zig Ziglar originally said it, but yes.
I just want to double click on what you just said there. I think some people think that mindset means that you’re always optimistic and just always positive emotions, and you’re not realistic. But really what it means is you feel the fear — like there might be a challenge in front of you or there’s a fear that you’re facing — and so what? We’re not asking people to remove the fear or to not acknowledge the fear. It is about being realistic and understanding what is the challenge in front of me and what is the emotion that I’m feeling? Fear. But now I have a choice, right?
Is this fear telling me that it’s really dangerous and I should run the other way? Or is this fear something that’s more of a signpost telling me, this is really important — I’m afraid of failure or I’m afraid of rejection — and it might be a sign to move forward.
So I studied under Dr. Marty Seligman, who is at the University of Pennsylvania. So I studied at UPenn, and he did all the research on what he called learned optimism. So this comes to mind — like if something bad happens, right? If we are pessimistic and we think of the sky is falling, everything is ruined, there’s no way we’re going to be able to overcome this — then that causes people to stop taking action. So really the thing that we want to avoid as leaders — and as leaders we want to avoid for our employees — is when people stop moving, when people stop taking action, when people just hesitate and sit still.
And so when people are pessimistic, they stop trying. And that is the worst thing in the world. So we want to be realistic — like what is the real challenge? But then be optimistic that we can overcome the challenge, that we can find a way forward.
And you know, from a leadership standpoint, the reason all of this is very important is that ultimately, it shapes what can be a limiting belief. And you start telling yourself the story — see, I shouldn’t have done that, I know, I don’t do well at accounting. I’m running my business and I made a mistake in my books. Well, guess what? Go hire a bookkeeper. You know, you don’t have to be the one doing all of that all the time. And it’s that idea of anything that sounds like a limit on what you can accomplish — you need to start with reframing that statement, whatever it may be. And I liked what you said about not a runner, not a runner yet.
Action Builds Confidence — Not the Other Way Around
Oh my gosh. You’re making me think — this is so fun because you’re making me think of — if people have self-limiting beliefs. So maybe they’re not a runner yet, right? And they’re not confident that they can run. So here’s the mistake so many people make.
They think that they should wait to take action until they feel ready or confident. And if we really think about it, a lot of us do that. Like, you know, we say things like this — I don’t think the timing is right yet. Maybe we’ll wait a little bit longer. Like, I don’t feel confident yet. So all these things are really fear disguising itself as wisdom.
So we think that once we feel ready and confident, then we start running — or we then do the thing. And that is absolutely opposite of what we know in psychology. So Albert Bandura, who studied self-efficacy, found that the way to build confidence is to take action when you don’t have the skill. Take the little step and try it. That’s what builds confidence. So instead of confidence preceding action, it’s the opposite. Taking a step forward in the presence of fear, taking those small steps — that is what builds confidence.
I mean, that’s so important for all of us to know. Like anything — you know, you’re always going to suck at something you’ve never done before. And the only way that you can build confidence is to try, you know, to experiment and try and do it for the first time. And it may not be perfect and you’ll learn, like, okay, this went well and this didn’t go well. So that’s just such an important one.
So if you feel like, gosh, I’m just not good at this yet — you’re probably right. But you’re going to be able to learn it. And the only way that you’re going to build the confidence is you got to take a step. So what I always teach is — bravery is defined as voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a noble, worthwhile goal. So you take a step scared because it matters. And so take the step, even though you don’t know if you’re going to be able to do it well. And you may look a little silly, and you may not be perfect the first time.
But when you take that step, you realize — you know what? The world did not end.
The Confidence Course: Bravery in Action
I wasn’t perfect, but okay, I feel a little bit more confident. And I can tell a great story to bring this to life. It’s so funny because I think of my experiences from being a marine, and then I take it to my psychology and I’m like, that’s why that happened.
So one of my scariest moments in college was when my ROTC unit decided to do a fun field trip on a Saturday to go to the beach in Coronado, to the Navy SEAL base, to go play on the obstacles — something called the Confidence Course — in the Navy SEAL base in Coronado. I think I was a sophomore in college, this was my second year. And so we go out there and we’re pulling up and I’m looking at these obstacles saying, like, who said this was a fun beach day? Because this is terrifying. I mean, these are obstacles that are designed to scare the crap out of Navy SEALs. And I’m a sophomore, I’m a 19-year-old college student, and we’re about to do these things.
There’s one specific obstacle called the Slide for Life. It should have been called the Slide for Death, because that’s really what it looked like. But it’s — I climbed up 40 feet on this little platform, and the obstacle is there’s a rope in front of me that extends about 200 feet in front of me to a platform below. So from the side it looks like a zip line, like with a rope, except that there’s no equipment. It’s just — we just have to get down on our own.
And so I remember up there, I was so terrified. And part of me is like, I’m not ready, I’m not ready, I can’t do this, I’m not ready. But what gave me the confidence — or what gave me the push to move forward — is I was afraid of failing, but I was really afraid of giving up in front of all my peers who were down below me. I didn’t want to give up, so I don’t know how I did it, but I just put my body on the rope and I started pulling.
And when I got to the other side and my feet hit the ground, Doug — something clicked in me. I was like, I just did that. The confidence was built in that moment. So this is what I’m talking about. Like, I was absolutely terrified, but I did it. And then I realized — I just did that. So when you take action in the presence of fear, that’s what builds confidence. So just don’t keep waiting. The most dangerous thing I hear people say, especially young people, is “someday.” Someday I want to write a book. Yeah, someday.
As you were describing that — the Army had their own version of that same obstacle course, and we call it a confidence course. And that’s exactly what it did. When you push yourself beyond any feasible limits that you can come up with in your mind — and whether it’s peer pressure in the moment or the tack sergeant yelling in your ear — you go over the obstacle, you conquer it.
And the interesting thing is, I don’t ever recall anything on that course that was truly designed to make you fail on.
Exactly. Yes.
You could conquer every one of those stations on that obstacle course. It took work. It took some skill and training. And the one I loved was the giant oversized ladder that as you went up, the rungs got farther and farther apart.
We call that the Stairway to Heaven. And again, like all these — do you love the names of these? They’re very deceptive. Like Stairway to Heaven, you’re like, this is nice. But you’re right. And going over that top one — you have to like — yeah, I know that one. That’s probably —
Scary.
Your body extension to get up to that top rung. But you’re about 40 feet off the ground, you know, when you’re doing it.
Yeah.
Interesting thing.
And for your listeners — there’s no harnesses. There’s no safety equipment. You just — you do it, right.
So yeah.
But we did it, right.
Yeah. That’s right, that’s right. And but to your point of all this, the life lesson was — again, you are capable of many greater things than you would ever imagine you could do if you just take action, take the next step, make the next lift, make the next reach or step or whatever.
I was also reminded myself — and this is going to really get me in trouble with all my helicopter parents out there — but when I was a young boy, and many of my listeners know this, I was raised by a single mom, only child of a single mom. When I would come home from school — whatever grade I was in, didn’t matter — if I had a complaint. You know, well, this happened or that happened and that’s not right. It needs to be another way, blah, blah, blah. She would sit and talk with me, but then she would say, if you want it, go fix it. You know, go get it.
And she would not ride up to the school with me to talk to the principal or the teacher or the coach. I had to go confront them myself. Yeah, we had talked through a strategy and had some ideas of proper ways to make the case. But I learned at an early age — you know, go get it. If you want it, go get it.
Yeah.
And I stood up in front of those leaders at the school and — it was amazing — how many times things did, in fact, change. And I did get it my way.
Yeah.
Brave Parenting: Building Resilience, Not Dependency
I’m so glad you brought that up, because I sometimes talk about parenting also in my keynotes. Because really, our job as parents is to build kids that are ready to confidently go out in the world and live their best life. And over-protecting them and doing too much for them comes out of a beautiful place in your heart, but it actually minimizes — it diminishes your kids.
And I share a story where I made the mistake myself. So in a lot of homes, when there’s a mom and a dad, there’s always the good cop, bad cop. So I was the marine, so I was the tough one on the kids all the time. My husband is the laid-back one — he used to surf a lot, like, you just want everyone to be happy. So we had kind of that dynamic in the house, but I was the tough one.
And at one point, one of my daughters was in high school and she had to do a presentation in her English class. Like they had to read these classics and then they had to do like a five-minute presentation or something in front of their English class. And I remember my daughter was just, like, sick with worry. I mean, she was miserable. She was crying and, like, doubled over with her stomach. As you know, sometimes if you’re really nervous, even your stomach bothers you. Like it was — she was miserable.
And because she was miserable, guess who else was miserable? Everybody else in the family. So it was really hard. And it was one of those moments I got talked into — like, you know what? Why don’t we intervene? Why don’t we ask the teacher for an exception? And we justified it in saying, this is an English class. This is not a public speaking class. This is not a communication class.
So, I mean, I’m embarrassed to admit this — this tough marine that teaches bravery — but this is one time where I did it. I called the school and asked for an exception. And guess what? The teacher pushed back and said it’s a requirement for everyone. I know it’s hard, but I encourage you to help her prepare. And when someone tells me no, I was like, what? Right. So then I called the principal and the principal supported the teacher.
I was like — and here’s where I’m — I’m just so embarrassed to even say this. But I mean, a lot of parents, you do this because I thought I was doing the right thing. So then there’s a psychologist in the local area and, you know, Brooke — my daughter — went to this person. And really the psychologist said, this is anxiety, this is serious, like she’s having like a panic attack before this. So I don’t think it’s the right thing to make her do this. So she wrote a note to the school. So we got her way, right?
And when we had the news to say, you have been excused, you can do it a different way — to still get credit — it felt like love. It felt like I am in — there’s so much relief, like I’m doing the right thing. And it was not more than maybe a month later that I realized the huge error that I made.
Because when we do that as leaders or as parents, what I was really telling my daughter is — you can’t handle this. You’re not capable. So I don’t believe in your potential to be able to do this. So I’m going to take away the challenge. And that is not good parenting. So I adjusted quite quickly.
So, you know, for anyone listening out there — any of us, we do it because we just want to be the most loving parent. But our job is not to make them smile every moment of the day. It’s to teach them to be strong, resilient people.
So if I can make the mistake, all of us can. But you know, another person just for people to follow the research — there’s a gentleman whose name is Jonathan Haidt, and he’s at NYU, and he actually lectured to us at Penn and talked about the impact on kids when we’re overprotective. If we’re the snowplow parents or the helicopter parents, you actually have a profound kind of negative impact on the future success of your kids. So that really resonated with me.
And, you know, so we got to — sometimes we just got to say, figure it out. So Doug, your mom, the single mom, the single parent — what an amazing parent she was to do that.
Totally agree. I reflected on a number of things she did. And I, at the time, I can’t say I was 100% all in. It was like, you know, you’re feeding me to the wolves, mom, you know.
Yeah.
Is this — but as I look back on those moments, they paid many, many dividends. Yeah, I do want to shift gears one more topic, Jill, before we have to get out of here. In the green room, we were talking about situational agency. Tell us what that is and why is it important for us?
Situational Agency: You Choose Your Environment
Yeah. So situational agency is really defined as — we have the ability to choose basically our environment. And I would say this is true for 95% of the population, not everyone. So it might be born into an area and they literally don’t have the freedom maybe to change their environment. But it’s very, very rare. For most of us, we have situational agency. So we can choose who we hang out with. We have agency over — what are we going to do after work? Who are we going to listen to? What are we going to read? What are we going to watch? What are we going to surround ourselves with?
So this is actually part of my research on — because my job is to help people become braver. So we do the mindset stuff to help people take a brave step, but also your situation that you create. So your situational agency — who you surround yourself or what you surround yourself with — makes a big impact on your actions. So we need to be really thoughtful when it comes to: what are we doing to promote our taking the action that we want to take to achieve our goals?
Building Your Brave Tribe
In my book, I talk about creating a brave tribe. So let’s say you set a goal to do something that’s a little bit scary, but it’s a self-concordant goal — it’s really important to you, you’re intrinsically motivated, you really want to accomplish this goal. In my example, it’s — I wanted to write a book. So I wrote The Bravery Effect, which is my book.
But if I go back a couple of years before writing my book — and I set this goal — in order for me to be able to write the book and to get through the challenges and the setbacks along the way, and to step through the fear that I will encounter, it is a good strategy to surround myself with a brave tribe. Now, what is a brave tribe? It’s surrounding yourself with people that first of all — sometimes it’s a little bit scary to even go up to them because maybe they’ve actually accomplished more than you.
So for me, I had to find people who had already written books — bestselling books — that I really looked up to, that I can maybe ask a couple of questions. So I had a brave tribe — I curated a brave tribe. What I mean by curate is — think of someone who’s in an art museum. They’re curating art. They very carefully select the right pieces that are going to create the right — well, for me, curate a brave tribe means I need to choose who are three to four or three to five people who, when I’m on this path to accomplish my goal — for me, it was writing a book — when I get stuck or when I have questions, I can call them.
And in the days that I want to quit or I don’t think I can move forward, they’re going to be the ones that have the wisdom — because they’ve gone down the road — to not allow me to tap out even when I want to. And they’re going to maybe give me some advice on how I can overcome some challenges.
Ken Blanchard and the Writer’s Block Breakthrough
So I was lucky enough to have Ken Blanchard — that some of your audience might be familiar with — he was on my brave tribe. And if I wouldn’t have had him, I don’t know if I ever would have written my book, because at one point he was kind of — he was my mentor. And so I was having a little check-in with him. And I had gotten the writer’s block, which everyone has — like, sometimes you have all these ideas and you sit down and it’s like the pressure and — you know — like I’m trying to write my book. And I just didn’t know if I was cut out for it because I was just struggling so much.
And so what Ken said to me changed everything. He said, Jill, the same thing happened to me. The exact same thing happened to me. I got writer’s block too. And I go, excuse me, how is that possible? You’re Ken Blanchard — I think he’s got 48 New York Times bestselling books. How is this possible? So he shared his struggles when he was young.
So when you have a mentor like this — when Ken tells me that he had the same challenges early on — it made me realize that I’m normal. Like having these challenges is normal. And then he gave me some practical advice. He kind of made a little fun of me. He’s like, Jill, you have no problem talking about bravery because I probably talked too much. You just have a hard time writing. He’s like, what I did is I use dictation because for me, it’s easier to talk about it. So why don’t you try that? So that is really how I got unstuck.
So when you’re creating situational agency, I want you to think about what is the specific goal that you have, and then find some people that have accomplished the thing that you’re seeking to accomplish — that have the wisdom, someone that you can rely on to help you in the down moments. Because on the road to accomplish that goal, they’re going to be your ups — they’re going to be the ones to say, yay, way to go — and on the downs they’re going to be the ones that say, keep going.
They will encourage you — put courage into you. And so you might have a brave tribe for — for me, it was writing a book. I might have another brave tribe for me, running Spartan races. Different people. Ken Blanchard is going to help me write the book, right? So I want people to think about, when it comes to situational agency — you know, there’s a lot that goes into your situation, but one of the most important ones is who you surround yourself with.
So make sure the people you’re hanging out with — their level of accomplishments is a little bit higher than yours. So they help pull you up and they’ve got that wisdom. And it should be different for each of your big goals that you have out there.
Closing Thoughts
I love it. Well, Jill, thank you so much for sharing all this with us. Tell people the best way to get in touch with you.
Yes, of course. So people just go to my website and they can learn all about me — JillSchulman.com. So that’s a great place. I’m most active on LinkedIn because I mainly speak to corporate audiences. So if anyone’s on LinkedIn, please look me up — just Jill Schulman. And then I’m also getting out of my comfort zone and being brave — so I’m also on Instagram and Facebook, so you can find me there.
And then what I can give to you, Doug, and I will give you the link to it — if any of you are interested in learning more about bravery because we couldn’t do everything here — I do have a book, a bestselling book called The Bravery Effect, which is a parable teaching the science of overcoming fear, achieving more, and living your best life. I have a free audiobook, so I can give it to all of your readers as a gift, so I will give you that link.
And if they go on your site and click, they can download a free version. I would love it — I’d be honored if anyone reads it, because we are in a bravery recession right now, and I really just want to help people. So I will give you the link to share with your audience, and for your audience, they can share the link with anyone in the world that they think it will help. I’m not — I mean, I do like making money in the book, but I’m more interested in just spreading the science of bravery to help people.
I really appreciate that, and we will — folks will have all of those links in the show notes, the one she mentioned, as well as the surprise one in the gift, one that we’re going to get separately and put online. But one last time, Jill, thank you so much. This has really been good.
Appreciate it. Thank you so much.
For having me and your patience. We finally got together.
Thank you so much. I know it.
Was a good one. Well folks, this is the part of the show I’d like to remind you — we do have a video version over on YouTube. Leadership Powered by Common Sense. Hop over there and check out the archives, and we’d love to hear from you. But with that, we’re going to sign off, say goodbye, and go out there and make it a great day.
Meet Our Guest
Jill Schulman is a keynote speaker on the science of bravery, bestselling author of The Bravery Effect, and a U.S. Marine Corps veteran. She teaches organizations how to turn bravery into a performance advantage.
Her work is grounded in a simple idea: fear is inevitable. Hesitation is optional. Bravery is trainable. Her evidence-based Bravery framework gives leaders and teams a practical system to build the skill of bravery and act despite uncertainty.
With a Master’s in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania and more than 25 years of business experience, Jill has delivered over 1,500 keynotes and leadership programs for organizations including AbbVie, Genentech, and Allergan, impacting more than 40,000 professionals worldwide.
Her research-driven insights have been featured in Forbes, SUCCESS Magazine, Fast Company, Psychology Today, Good Day New York, and on the The Jon Gordon Podcast, along with over 100 additional media outlets. Jill works with leaders and teams responsible for driving growth, making high-stakes decisions, and executing under pressure. She helps them eliminate hesitation, make bold decisions, and follow through when it counts. Learn more at www.jillschulman.com
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