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Leadership Powered by Common Sense | Episode 489 | Guest: Dr. Wayne Wilson
Introduction
Hey. Hello again, everyone. Doug Thorpe here. Today we’re going to talk about your organizational culture as a family unit. And maybe you’ve heard that before, or maybe you shudder to think about that. But the reality is there’s some truth there. My guest is someone who’s done some doctoral work on that topic. His name is Wayne Wilson. Doctor Wayne Wilson. Wayne, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Tom.
Yeah. When we were talking in the green room, Wayne, you did describe the kind of both your story arc of your own career. Let’s start with that and I’ll add the other question later.
Meet the Guest: Dr. Wayne Wilson
Okay. All right. Good. Well, the Reader’s Digest version, you remember the little synopsis. Reader’s Digest synopsis is I’ve been in the helping professions for over 30 years. So I started out in ministry, I went to Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, got a master’s degree in pastoral care and counseling.
I worked in an adolescent psychiatric unit for six years, worked in multiple churches, and started counseling centers inside of churches, faith-based counseling centers. I got a doctorate in counseling and organizational psychology. I left Louisville, Kentucky, came here to North Carolina to run outpatient counseling centers. So I ran as the executive director, was a licensed counselor and marriage and family therapist.
I served simultaneously for over ten years, both Wake Forest Baptist Health as the executive director of counseling centers and was an associate professor at Liberty University in the Department of Counseling, Family Studies, and Human Services. I left there, went as an internal coach to a corporate thousand-employee, half-billion-dollar company. Snyder Fleet Solutions was my employer. I was the chief learning officer, director of professional development, started Snyder University, coached all the way through the organization, and developed their entire learning and development system there.
And now I own Pivot Coaching and Consulting. So for my entire career, I’ve been guiding people to improve their lives and their families and their organizations for many, many years.
The Doctoral Work: Where Family Systems Meets Organizational Culture
Now, your doctoral work was in that organizational psychology area. Tell us specifically the view that you took or studied.
My doctoral project — I was pastoring a church and the church’s leadership was in transition. They really hired me for that purpose. They were in a transitionary period and to guide them through that transition. And I was simultaneously doing doctoral work, and I ended up integrating my passion and love for helping individuals grow and helping organizations grow.
And where that crossed the crossroads was taking a theory of psychological family systems theory that really is nothing more than an acknowledgement that how you think in your unconscious thought process and your habits are derivative of where you come from — not rocket science, right? So the family that you come from is both nurture and nature. And therefore the way leaders lead is very, very reflective of the environment they grew up in. And they either deal with that consciously or unconsciously.
My church was not dealing with it consciously. The church culture was driven by the leadership of the church, the board that ran the church and the members of that board — their personalities, their character, the way the families that they came from drove it.
So I studied it. My doctoral project was to study the culture of that church based on who the leadership is and how the leaders drove the culture of that church. And that was my doctoral work.
Doug’s Story: You Can’t Compartmentalize a Dumpster Fire
Yeah. You know, as you say all that, I’m reminded of a chapter in my story. As many of my listeners know, I went into banking after I left the military, and we had an HR leader in that organization. And this was many decades ago who championed the idea that as you live your life privately, it will impact your work life professionally.
And many people push back on that. Because I think in the day, back then — this was maybe the 80s, I’ll call it — there’s this idea, oh, you can compartmentalize. You know, you can have a dumpster fire of a home life and you’ll be an amazing individual at work. And as time went on and to be totally transparent and honest, I kind of pushed back on her as well because truth be told, I was having a dumpster fire at home.
I hear you. I hear you. You don’t want to deal with that. Yeah.
And yet, I thought I was being very productive and very much in the game at work — and in a fashion that was true. But it’s not a sustainable model. The individual trying to pull that off, in this case me — it’s a burnout moment.
It is the seedbed. It is the culture — the environment in which burnout is created. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Yeah. And it was only after I did some work to improve and stabilize and correct what was going on in my personal life that I really got productive, even more so in professional life. So I actually went back to that person after she left banking. She too became an executive coach and has done some great work. We’re still friends to this day and I, in a fashion, apologized to her. She didn’t even know I had really made issue with it, but nonetheless, I chose to bring it up and apologize to her and reveal the wisdom that she had shared.
Key Discussion Point 1: Where Do You Start When an Organizational Culture Is Troubled?
Well, Wayne, when you start peeling that onion — when you discover an organization that is troubled, I’ll just say it that way — where do you begin trying to adjust and pivot, as your company name says?
Absolutely. All pivots begin with an acknowledgement that something’s not working. So my first conversation with all my clients is: appreciate you being willing to have a conversation with me. What would you say isn’t working exactly the way you wanted to, or not to the level that you had hoped it would work?
Something’s not working, right. I learned a long time ago that people have an openness to change only when the pain is relevant enough to make it worth it. So there’s a reason that they’re looking for a pivot. So we start with the symptom. What’s not working. And you can pretty easily trace back — if you understand this idea and if you’re humble enough, as you were, to acknowledge that you can’t compartmentalize it and it not show up somewhere.
There’s a lot of neuropsychology. We understand a whole lot about post-traumatic stress, and what happens when you shove stuff in a closet psychologically and don’t deal with it. It comes back, it comes out somewhere. It’s going to show up somewhere.
So we find ways to relevantly trace that back and determine: okay, the root cause of the current culture could be these things. And so there’s just got to be an openness. One of my favorite questions in an interview for executive coaching is — if you were the executive coach and I was interviewing, one of the first questions I would say is: Doug, I need to ask you a really important question. So I’m going to ask you to be really honest with yourself and honest with me. Are you willing to do that today? Of course you are.
So then I would say: Doug, if you and I determine that part of the problem in your organization not performing at its highest level is you — are you willing to do some work around that?
And if your answer to that is no, or you have a lot of resistance to that, you might not be a good client for me. Because there has to be an openness to how might I, as the leader, be contributing to the cost? Because I guarantee you that you are in some way at the root.
John Maxwell’s law number one of the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is the law of the lid — the leader determines the capacity of the organization. So there are lots of things that we could trace back. But at some point we’re going to come back to: how are you contributing as the leader to that? And that’s going to be a really important question. Is that fair?
Key Discussion Point 2: Leading Yourself First
No, I think that’s absolutely true. And you know, one of the first tenets I think of a solid leadership development effort is lead yourself. Find that next level opportunity. And I don’t mean promotion or advancement, I mean in your ability to influence and inspire others.
There’s inevitably a next level that you can seek. And what I tell my clients is we’re not going to create your total end game right now, but we most definitely can advance to the next level and identify the opportunities that may truly propel you and your organization. I like what you said in the green room. Talk about your idea of long-term sustainability.
Key Discussion Point 3: Culture Is the Foundation, Not the Cosmetics
Well, there’s a new culture. I was in a workshop on Monday with a private equity broker, and he was saying how aggressive private equity is these days and how many there are and how aggressively they’re coming after small business owners and purchasing businesses. And a part of what he was telling us is you’ve got to be really clear with their purpose and their intent.
Sometimes in that new culture, the focus is: how quickly can you turn profits? It’s like flipping a house. If you buy a house and your intent is to flip it, you’re most interested in the cosmetics — how quickly can you get that house looking ready to sell again. And if that is the intent, then sustainability, legacy, and long-term culture aren’t necessarily a focal point.
But if you’re one of those businesses that wants to build a great business — like Jim Collins defines in Good to Great — where it’s not only profitable but sustainable over a 5 to 20-year period of time, your culture is everything. Now you’re the home inspector. You’re crawling underneath the house, looking in the rafters, looking at the foundation. Because if you’re renting it for 40 years, you want it to be stable.
You can fix the cosmetics, but you need a solid foundation. That’s culture, legacy, sustainability. In an organization, it’s all about culture.
Yeah. And I always caution leaders that I talk to — they begin to speak of what they might be trying to do with culture development, culture promotion, call it. And I caution them: don’t let that be the project du jour. You have to be thinking long game in what you’re setting out and wanting to do.
And I ask them often one of those tough questions — like you described: are you in it for the long game? You may say you’re the owner and say, yes, of course, I’m in it for the long game. But the long game means think about what you really want to be working and doing day over, day over day, over day. And the good news is, if you choose wisely and effect wisely, you’re going to enjoy doing the work because the people around you are excited, they’re motivated, they’re fully engaged.
And it doesn’t mean that you have to be neck deep in the operations every day.
Exactly.
This is the key. Jim Collins says a Level 5 leadership is the figurehead, the visionary — that people follow them for who they are. It doesn’t mean they’re in the operations day to day. And so it doesn’t mean that you can’t delegate, but it means you have to stay as the figurehead of that company — the person that drives the values and the culture and the primary focus and the service culture. You have to still be engaged. You can’t totally pass that off to somebody else.
Modeling, Celebrating, and Reinforcing Culture
And you know, the critical part of that is once you set the vision of how you want to show up and how you want the company to operate, you have to model it, you have to demonstrate it, and you have to reinforce it.
When an employee exhibits an element of that culture you’re trying to achieve, you have to acknowledge it. You have to celebrate it. And in that way you reinforce it. You can tell somebody: that’s exactly what I’m talking about.
What you — thank you for that. Right on. That’s right. Yeah yeah yeah.
Behind the Scenes: The High Five Plumbing Story
And I’ve occasionally told the story here. I met a man who owns a plumbing company in Denver, and he is probably the epitome of everything we’re talking about right now in terms of what he has set as a culture. He even named the company around his idea of culture. It’s called High Five.
Okay.
Yeah. And he’s got all these things that he does with his employees. Number one, he pours training and development into everybody. He brings all of his techs into the shop three days a week for an hour-long training. Now, most service company owners are going to say, are you kidding me?
You know, how many techs do you have? Well, he’s got 40. And they go — 40? Are you kidding me? 40 man hours a day, times three — 120 man hours out of your week. You’ve got people in training. You look at all the revenue opportunity you lost. And he goes, nay, nay, nay, nay.
Yes, I’ve lived it.
Look at the elevation I’m giving these guys for what they’re able to do out in the field and what they want to do out in the field.
It was the number one barrier as chief learning officer in the large organization: “We ain’t got time for this” from the front-line workers and the VPs. And I would just constantly remind them: if you’re going to cut a tree down with an axe, you’ve got time to sharpen it. And your tech productivity level is going to be reflective. The quality of their work, the quality of their engagement with customers.
Right. And their efficiency, their productivity per hour is going to be dependent on whether or not you do this training or not. It’s going to go up or down. Let’s measure it. Let’s not do it for two months and you measure it. Let’s do it for two months and measure it. Let’s see what happens.
And to that point, the three days a week were divided up intentionally. One day was about technical training — new advancements, new materials, new tools, new procedures, new practices, changing local plumbing code, building code. Another day was on customer service — nothing but customer service. And then the third day was a reinforcement of the company culture.
Do you see how intentional this leader has been about culture? He’s modeling and defining the culture based on whether or not he’s willing to spend the money and make the investment in those man hours.
And yes, he lost revenue, but I’ll be willing to bet you, since he focused on all three, that he multiplied his returns.
Oh, he has. It’s incredibly profitable. The longer I got to know him and work with him, I said: you know, really, what you’ve got here is a perfect candidate for franchising. You’ve got a playbook. You’ve got a whole blueprint. And people could pay big bucks to buy that model and get in your network. And he said, yeah, I’ve had other people tell me that. But he said, I don’t think that’s my idea right now.
That’s great. He’s driving the vision. I love that. Yeah.
And it’s back to Jim Collins — it’s that one thing. He is centered and focused on his hedgehog principle and he knows what he’s doing.
Yeah. Well, for your small business owners, the thing that I think differentiates your small business owners from your mid-level market VPs and C-suite officers is that it’s all about quality service. Whoever’s delivering the best quality of service is going to have the referrals, is going to have the most volume of calls. If you’re a small business owner, it’s about quality of your service. Yeah.
Key Discussion Point 4: Core Values Must Match Who You Actually Are
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, let’s get back to the concept of how does a leader really help instigate or advance his organizational behavior? What are some of the other considerations you coach?
Well, let’s go back to the leader and the culture. Let’s go back to sustainable, long-term, productive, high-performing, high-integrity culture. If you’re not looking to flip this company quickly, if you’re looking for sustainable culture, if you’re looking for profitability over a period of time — your core values, your mission statement, that can’t be something you put on the wall and aspire to. They have to be who you are.
So you as a leader need to do a gut check — with a coach, with a therapist, with a friend, with a mentor. You need to do some self-assessment as to what really is most important to you. What can you model? What can you live out?
Because your actions and your words have got to match. And if you’ve not done that work and you put them up on the wall, you actually set a trap for yourself because you’re going to lower the trust of your employees and your customers. And they’re going to know that what you say you believe in is not what you believe in. And they won’t trust you. If it’s your employees, they won’t join you — you’re going to have a lot of resistance from them. If it’s your customers, they’re always going to question your integrity, your motives.
It has to match your values, your core values, and what you’re building this company around. I’ve got to be congruent with who you are. That’s the word. And that’s where I became an expert — helping leaders go under the iceberg and be really honest with themselves in a confidential, private, safe place. And then apply that. And if it’s not congruent with what they want, change it. You can change it.
Practical Advice: The Founder Who Can’t Let Go
You know, in banking, there was a phenomenon I observed over time that really frustrated me. It disappointed me. It made me sad. We had bank customers — entrepreneurs — that would come in and say, hey, I’ve got an idea for a business. Can you help me? And we would come on board and over time we would see their companies growing. But inevitably, for a vast majority of them, they would hit some sort of level and then it would begin to implode. The wheels would start falling off.
As I started leaning into that, what I realized was it was inevitably, always, the founder that couldn’t make the pivot with the company growth.
The company outgrew the leader. That’s the law of the lid, right? That’s law number one of the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership. Yeah, that’s what John Maxwell means.
Yeah. And it was horribly sad in my book because the idea might have been really good — it was proven in the market, there was traction. But as bankers we would talk to these people and say, hey, you really probably ought to get a COO in here to help do your day to day and get you elevated into that visionary role.
And they often wouldn’t let go.
They wouldn’t let go. They had that white-knuckle idea and they knew they were getting burned up, working 16, 18 hours a day to try to keep it together. And it’s like — you’ve got the money, you’ve got the cash to expand your business with talented people. And often they wouldn’t do it.
Key Discussion Point 5: Check Your Ego — The Classic Definition
Here’s what I want to say to your listeners, whether or not they’re small business owners, in the C-suite, or even mid-level directors.
The ego is not defined as arrogant. That’s a more modern interpretation of the word. Ego in psychological terms is really simplified as a self-identity. Okay. So when I say to your listeners — if you think your organization has stalled, if you think its growth has stalled — check your ego at the door. Meaning not check your arrogance, check your self-identity.
If your identity is locked up in having control of all the details, it’s going to limit the size of your organization. And if you’re not willing at some point to bring in COOs and fractional controllers and coaches, and if you’re not willing to challenge your own self-identity — your own ego in the classic definition — your organization is going to be limited by where that identity is. And you’re not going to get past that until you’re willing to surrender it.
I think that’s why humility is the foundational principle of exceptional leadership. Elite executive leadership is centered around humility.
Identity Beyond the Job Title
Yeah. Well, you know, that identity thing — I like what you’re saying there. I saw it in the crash of ’08. I created a nonprofit to help job seekers. And one of the first things I recognized was people were coming in the door like zombies. You could see it in their eyes.
When I started really paying attention to that and doing some work with it, what I realized was their personal identity was tied into the job title or the job role that they had. And so I started a bit of a game. A new person would walk in the door and I would say: Hi, I’m Doug. What’s your name? Tell me something about yourself. And inevitably they would say: well, I’m an engineer, I’m an accountant, I’m a marketing person. And I’d go, no — okay, I respect that. But you didn’t answer my question. Tell me about you.
You know.
And people couldn’t do it. They were so focused and stripped of all facets of identity because they had lost the job. And for many of my clients, it was the first time ever in their work life that something like that had happened.
I had the rug pulled out from underneath them.
It was the economic crash that caused the companies to jettison all these people. And with that, all this collateral damage was going on. So we did a lot of work as an organization to help replenish somebody’s sense of identity, personal identity, and purpose.
And we have ways to help people identify their real, true sense of purpose. In my model for job seeking, I said: you can’t write a resume until you know your purpose. Everybody wanted to jump to “let me update my resume.” And it’s like, yeah, we’re going to get to that. But not right now. If you can’t describe to me your sense of purpose, you’re not ready to write your resume yet.
Wow.
And we had a whole lot of amazing success stories out of that. People made industry changes — whole industries were impacted. They found a new course, a new direction, and a new inspiration for what they were doing.
Practical Takeaways: A Call to Reflection
Yeah. Well, it’s an opportunity for your listeners. As they evaluate their organization — as you’re listening to this podcast, you’re thinking about where is my organization and where do I want it to go — you’re empowered to ask a question that you may not have been asking: how does the current state of my organization reflect my own identity?
And if you can’t answer that, then get a coach. You’ve got two on the podcast today, and there are others out there. Get a coach and have somebody guide you through the ways to do that.
There are simple and easy ways to do that, and you don’t need psychotherapy to do it. You just need to be reflective and have some humility to examine it and be willing to make some changes. But it will transform your life, the quality of your life. It will transform your organization.
Closing Thoughts
And I think on that note, Wayne, we’re going to wrap this up. Tell people the best way to get in touch with you.
I’m trying to simplify that whole process, and it’s very relational. So you can find me on LinkedIn — I post my content, podcasts like this one are highlighted and posted on LinkedIn. Doctor Wayne Wilson is where you find me on LinkedIn.
And then I have a very simple landing booking page because I want to start a relationship with a conversation. I’m not selling programs, and it’s not about my content. It’s about the relationship that you and I have, and how we’re going to work together to transform your leadership in the crucible that I call coaching.
So you go to coach.com, then schedule a simple 15 to 30-minute conversation. Let’s find out what you’re trying to accomplish and what needs to improve.
Wonderful. Well, as always, folks, we’re going to have those links in the show notes. But Wayne, thank you so much for sitting in. Really appreciate your wisdom here.
Thank you, Doug. Thank you. When we change the leader, we change all the relationships in that leader’s life. So good for you. I appreciate what you’re doing.
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Well, folks, at this point, I do want to remind you we have a video version of this show over on YouTube — the channel by the same name, Leadership Powered by Common Sense. Hop over there, check out our archives, leave us some comments, join the channel if you will. And for now, we’re going to sign off. Say goodbye. Go out there. Make it a great day.
Meet Our Guest
Dr. Wayne is an executive coach, culture strategist, and leadership catalyst with over 30 years of experience spanning corporate leadership, psychotherapy, and organizational development. He has coached senior leaders across healthcare, transportation, and mission-driven sectors to align performance with purpose and lead with emotional intelligence. Formerly Director of Organizational Development at Snider Fleet Solutions and founder of Snider University, Wayne is known for helping teams navigate change and build trust-driven, values-based leadership.
Links:
https://coachdrwayne.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/drwayne-wilson
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