Episode 508: From Corporate Layoff to Decarbonization Entrepreneur with Brian Livingston
Introduction
Hey, folks. Frequently we talk here about people who have spent time in the corporate world and decided to go out independently. And there’s a lot of different reasons that can happen. Sometimes it’s the idea. Sometimes it’s a circumstance. But today, my guest is going to share his story of that transition. His name is Brian Livingston. Brian, welcome to the show.
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Hey. Thanks, Doug. Good to be here. Appreciate you having me on.
Yeah. So let’s, let’s start with a little bit of info on the business you now have that you got into, and then we’ll go. We’ll backtrack to the transition story.
Meet the Guest: From Caterpillar to Clean Diesel Technology
Yeah, sure. No, I’m always excited to talk about sustainability and decarbonization and things like that. And I’m happy to share my story too. I’ve always enjoyed just being able to help people with, you know, here’s here’s what I’ve experienced in life. Maybe this experience will help you, you know? So I’m always excited to talk about those things.
So glad to be here and what the company is now. you know, in some ways, let me let me back up a little bit and to talk about what forced me into this, because I’ve been a corporate guy my whole life, you know, been with major, you know, international companies, you know, kind of household names, most of them. And, you know, last 20 years was with caterpillar. And when Covid hit, caterpillar fired about 4000 of us to in order to make the the quarter in numbers. You know that’s just kind of how it goes. And so I was of an age it was pretty difficult to think about, you know, a new job somewhere else. Plus looking for a job in the middle of Covid, you know, and had a great you know, I didn’t go so well either. So a friend of mine had introduced me to a product and well, let me let me grab one here because I, you know, I, I hate to give you too many details, but to kind of make the whole story, you know, it kind of has to be here.
The, the product is something simple like this. And it looks just like a copper tube filled with stuff. And, well, that’s exactly what it is. The because of all my time at Cat in the diesel engine division, I just know quite a bit about diesel engines. And I’m a chemical engineer by schooling and use that some in my career, so I kind of understand the chemistry behind this thing. But essentially when you put diesel fuel in here, it goes through here and there’s a bunch of rare earth catalysts and stuff in here, and it comes out the other side, and it takes some of those long chain molecules that diesel fuel is made out of and breaks them into shorter chains. And I’m not going to get any more deep into the chemistry than that, because most people can remember that kind of from their high school chemistry. And that’s what makes this thing work. Because then when the when the fuel gets into your cylinder and burns because it’s shorter molecules. They burn more efficiently than longer molecules.
And so you get lower carbon dioxide and lower NOx, all those nasty things. And you also get more efficient combustion, which means you save like 5 to 7% on your fuel. And when I saw that and well, first off, I was very skeptical about it when I first heard about it. It’s like, now how can this be? You know, with all the experience I’ve had with caterpillar and stuff, how could I not know about this? And well, anyway, after I did my due diligence and did my homework, I’m like, yeah, this is very real. And I could really throw myself behind this, you know, my my name, my reputation, whatever, because it’s very real and the world needs it. And so that’s kind of how I got into this business. You know, I don’t have the some entrepreneurs will, you know, give you the story where they had this wonderful idea and they sold mortgage their house to make it work and all that. You know, I don’t really have that kind of a story, but I know that I’m in the same shoes as a lot of other people.
You know, this kind of thing happens and you’re forced to look at something else. And, you know, since the time I was, you know, very young in my career, I’d watched some people come and go at the company as I was at. And, you know, sometimes they were fired. And it’s like, you know, you keep track of these people and it’s like almost always. And you, you’ve heard this advice before. When something like that happens, when it’s just a bad fit or something, you almost always end up in a better situation. You know, and it’s always a heartburn, heartbreak to go through that situation. But you always come out better at the other end, at least almost always. And so I want to offer that as encouragement to people as well. If you’re in that situation, you know.
The Corporate Layoff Nobody Saw Coming
Yeah, absolutely. And let me just camp on that idea. I mean, and I, I deal with that a lot with, with some of my coaching clients.
They, they come to me with an expression of friction and frustration where they are and when we start breaking it down, what we realize is in most cases, it’s it’s not that the individual has a bad attitude or a bad work ethic, it’s that they have a set of core principles and beliefs that just don’t align with where they are and what they’re being asked to do. And I’m not even talking about anything that’s illegal or immoral. I’m just talking about basic friction of different ideas and different principles that are being, you know, propagated.
And the company has a culture, right. You know, and every person has a personality, you know, and there has to be some sort of a mesh between those two, you know. And a caterpillar in me was actually a good fit for 20 years, you know. And so I got caught just purely in an economic deal where they needed to, you know, cut a bunch of costs so they could, you know, calculate it that way at the quarter end.
And, you know, that’s just kind of life in a big company, unfortunately.
And that’s the the ultimate reality of the corporate life in that a couple of things happen. spending time in a corporation, you’re you’re inevitably climbing a ladder, but it gets much narrower at the top. So the opportunities for continued advancement start to dwindle. And, you know, and and for a lot of people, the truth is they they really don’t want the jobs that are offered to them above them on the ladder. Yeah, they they like the technical side of what they’re doing or the people’s side of what they’re doing, and they don’t really particularly want to go any further. And in a lot of cases, that ends up putting a tag on them. And, and when those economic pressures hit the company, that puts you on the short list for, you know, out the door.
So sometimes it does. Yeah.
It’s it’s a, it’s an inevitable and unfortunate reality of big business. That is how things happen.
Introducing the Company and the Startup Phase
So you know, finding that alternative pathway, like you said, often turns out to be a better deal. So with that, let’s let’s talk about the name of your company is Zelle cam. Is that right? Yes.
And welcome. Yeah.
Let’s let’s talk about you know okay. You found the idea. So walk us through a little bit of the startup phase, if you will.
Yeah. Well, being a corporate guy my whole life, being an entrepreneur and a one guy does it all shop. It was very different. You know, you you got to be doing your accounting in the morning, you know, and you have to be making sure that you’re submitting the right tax forms, you know, and then talking to customers, you know, and pitching your ideas, you know, and you know as well as doing customer service and running statistics for your customers. You got to do it all it. In some ways, it’s been a good fit for my personality though, because I’ve always loved learning new things.
You know, even though I’m a bit of an old guy now, you know, and old guys kind of tend to, you know, not like change. Well, I’ve always loved change. You know, new stuff just just excites me. And I get all, you know, like, yeah, let’s go. I want to learn something new. And so it’s been a good fit in that regard, you know, learning how to do all this new stuff. And of course, with AI coming in now, I’m just starting to learn how to do how to get AI to do some things for me, especially those, you know, mundane tasks. So and so I’m learning something new again, learning how to work with AI. Yeah. So it’s been a good fit for me. I’ve really enjoyed the process of starting a new business, but you got to learn a lot of stuff, you know, and there’s been a lot of heartburn with it. Of course, you know, you go 90% of the way with a customer, and then all of a sudden, you know, just bam, they just go silent.
You know, well, their boss didn’t like it, or their boss’s boss didn’t like the idea or something, you know, and so then you just get ghosted. And so you kind of learn a lot about human psychology as well. And of course, if you’ve if you’ve lived as long as, like you and I have, you get most of that, you know, you understand. yeah. Just people are going to be into it, into themselves, which is fine. You know, we all need to look out for ourselves. That’s what I forget. One of the great economists said, if everybody just does what’s best for them, somehow it’s best for the whole organization. You know, the whole country, the whole economy.
Becoming the Chief Everything Officer
Yeah. Well, you, you know, you touch on the key thing. I call it the chief everything officer phase. You know, CEO is chief everything officer. When you go the entrepreneurial startup route, you are Touching everything. Doing everything. And, you know, depending on the the proposition that you’re working on that can that can be effective for quite some time.
And eventually you need those other resources. It starts being practical and and smart to, you know, delegate out, hire out, if you will, even bookkeeping and accounting and some of those kind of things so that you can pay attention to the core business. And when you’re also as a CEO, when you’re the chief evangelist for the business, you you’ve got to be on the front line making those calls, taking those meetings and keeping things moving, because you’ve got to build the pipeline to fulfill the pipeline. And it’s a it’s a tall order.
Yeah it is. And you know, transitioning you know, beyond that is tricky where I’ve, where I’ve landed with that so far anyway in my business. You know, I’m, I’m probably ready getting close to ready to possibly look at some part time, you know, help. But a lot of what I do or what I need to do is to get the word out. Because, you know, when I held up this little device here before, you know, and tried to explain it, the the world really doesn’t know this is a good option.
They don’t know that it exists even, you know. So my biggest challenge in in business really is helping people understand there’s one more option they don’t know about. You know, if I was just another competitor with something, you know, that is real standard, you know, that I’d be pitching it a little bit differently. But my biggest competitor or my biggest, yeah, biggest competition is lack of awareness. You know, people don’t know that it exists. So one thing I’ve done through my long career at caterpillar, I’ve had a lot of people reach out to me as they found me on LinkedIn and stuff and they said, hey, I see you’re doing something different. You know, I’m looking for something to do. You know, let’s work together. And so I’ve been able to do that with a lot of ex coworkers, and a lot of people have just kind of found me and just my normal business whatever, you know. And so I’m working with, I don’t know, maybe ten, 12, 15 other people just on a strictly commission basis.
You know, if they can bring some customers in, then they get commission. And so that’s a little bit that’s my first expansion, really. And most of them are personal contacts of mine, you know, so that I know I can trust. And they trust me. That’s why we, you know, have a good working relationship. But so that’s my first thing. And, you know, as things continue to get bigger, which I hope they do, then there’ll be some other forks in the road in the future. Yeah, we’ll have to navigate.
The Bottom-Line Math: 5 to 7% Fuel Savings
Well, as I recall, reading your website, The. The direct fuel efficiency with this device is a 5 to 7% range. Is that.
Yeah, that’s about right. Yeah. I mean sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. Well, actually the averages of all the tests we’ve done is, is more than that. But I want to under promise and then overdeliver.
Yeah. And when I read that the, the way my brain thinks about business and looks at it, you know, that that’s a margin contribution issue.
You’re if you can create that kind of savings in fuel consumption, that’s a number that drops straight to the bottom line. Exactly in terms of margin gain. And if you’re a business owner out there, think about that. If if everything you’re doing you can improve by 5 to 7%. On its face, it sounds like a small number, but if you put that directly in your bottom line. You’ve got a real deal going on now and you’ve got that much more. And so you do the math on it. You know, it it becomes a very meaningful in your pocket kind of opportunity.
Absolutely. It does. You know, if you take the trucking world, for example, a typical trucking company fuel is there. Number two cost. Number one is the driver. So if you can take, you know, 5% out of your number two cost, you know, then that drops straight to the bottom line. And then you can take that 5% and do whatever you want to whether you can become more competitive, lower your prices.
You can pay your stockholders more. You know, whatever you want to do with it, you know, invest in R&D, but it gives you 5% that you didn’t have before. So you’ve got options.
Yeah. And depending on the scale of your business, you know, that number could be sitting with the trucking example. That number you could buy your next truck for cash. Wouldn’t even have to finance it. You know, you could, you could. Yeah. It’s it’s a it is a significant number when you get it into the mix there.
Payback Periods: A Return on Investment Story
So the payback thing is interesting too. The, the, the cost on these units, they’re not insignificant. You know, it’s not an it’s I mean, it’s filled with a lot of expensive rare earth metals and stuff. But for a trucking, for example, you pay back is about one year roughly, you know, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more, depending on where diesel’s, you know, pricing or whatever. Lately it’s been significantly less than a year.
But, you know, that means you’re going to get your investment back every year, which is equivalent to 100% return. And that’s actually some of our poorest performing business industries. You know, you get into mining, locomotives, port operations, etc. they drink a lot more diesel than trucks do, and I’ve seen paybacks as low as one month, but, generally, you know, the rest of those heavier drinking industries. I say like they’re 2 to 4. You know, sometimes six months paybacks. So you’re talking 200, 400, 800% return on investment, which is, you know, you should take a serious look at that. If you’re drinking diesel, you know, you should probably take a look at that, right.
And as you say, quite significant number when when that comes back. And then for those companies that are committed to decarbonization, what are what are some of the numbers on that and talk about.
Yeah. Well it’s actually pretty simple math because if you’re using 5% less fuel, yeah.
Then you’re going to be producing 5% less CO2, you know, greenhouse gas. And because you’re burning more efficient, you’re going to be producing less NOx and carbon monoxide and other things as well. now, if you’re driving, I’ll go back with what the EPA calls tier four final. So they’re as good as they need to be. So you’re already taking out NOx, and you’re after treatment and you’re already taking out soot, you know, or particulate matter in your decent particulate filters and stuff. So, you know, you’re already meeting all the laws. But where this does come in pretty useful is if you just want the bragging rights, you know, hey, we’ve cut our CO2 by 5%. We’ve we’ve been highlighted in a couple of corporate sustainability reports where, you know, they’ve given us a whole page on on how we’ve helped them to knock out, you know, some of their sustainability goals. So that’s been kind of rewarding as well.
Where Diesel Still Runs the World
Yeah. Educate me. I’m probably out of touch in this regard.
My perception of diesel, the majority of it is rolling stock. In other words trucks and vehicles and, you know, earth movers and things like that.
Yeah. I mean, there’s there’s a significant amount of diesel electric generators in the world, right? Not so much in the US. although as our grid as you, you know, and if you follow this stuff, our grid is getting closer and closer to capacity, and we’re years away from adding capacity. And AI data centers want to suck up all the electricity, you know, so if you’re kind of following any of that, we may be having more diesel generators in our country, but generally the grid is pretty stable in our country, so there’s not as much of that. Most of those are backup units, so that if the power does go down it, you know, it immediately springs into action, like at hospitals and things. But some parts of the world that don’t have the electrical generation capacity, you know, they use a lot of diesel gen sets and those are stationary.
And this technology works great on on that, you know, to to lower the, well, the fuel cost, you know, number one, but then also the CO2 and.
Right? Well, that’s what I was thinking of. And the ultimate point of my question for the generator segment here in the US. Anyway, those are incidental events. Those those things fire up and run when there is an outage. In other words, they’re not running constantly. And you’re not. You don’t have the primary risk of reliance on those. And so I you know, I would think that would be a lesser proposition. But nonetheless.
In our in our country it is. Yeah. In North America generally it is. But I’m working with a company in Asia right now where they have a major factory of a, of a well-known brand we’d all recognize, but they are 100% diesel generator for electric for for their factory.
Installing the Device
Fascinating. Well, looking at the device and folks, for those of you that are streaming on audio here, it’s a cylinder that’s about maybe 8 to 10in long.
And, it looks like the fuel lines just bolt on each end of that. Is that is that.
That’s exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly it. You know, people talk about, you know, what’s it take to to install this thing. And you know, you can see some threads on the end there and the same thing on the other end. Yeah. And that’s what, you know, you just screwed into your fuel line, you know, and some fuel lines are steel where you’d have to do a little more, be a little more involved. But, you know, a lot of fuel lines are just rubber. So you just kind of disconnected, hook it on this thing and then put another jumper in on the other end of the thing. And you know, we we say, you know, any reasonably qualified mechanic can do it in about a half an hour.
Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating work. And again great great example. Let me shift gears a little bit Brian. Sure.
I mean, we talked about, you know, your your transition into this, but Let’s talk about some of the biggest lessons you’ve learned as an entrepreneur.
Biggest Lessons: Why Nobody Believes Your Data
Whoo! Well, let me, you know, I have reams, literally reams of data on on the effectiveness of this. You know, millions have been spent on testing it in laboratories and test cells. And I’ve got over 100 customer test results as well. And they’re all highlighted on, on the website. Speaking of website, if any of this is sounding interesting and you want to think about it, go over to decarbonize five comm because I’m, you know, I’m kind of saying 5% here. So decarbonize five comm and I’ve got some calculators there where you can punch in some of your own numbers for your fleet and see if it’d be worth a phone call, you know, if it kind of get an idea of what you could save, not only in dollars but in carbon dioxide emissions as well. So anyway, decarbonize. And then you can get Ahold of me.
Schedule a meeting with me or whatever you want to do. but anyway, on that on the website, you know, I’ve got 100 examples from customers as well as the lab tests and such. Nobody believes them. You know, I can give anybody as much data, you know, that would choke a mule and nobody believes it. You know, nobody believes any numbers except their own. So it took me a while to kind of understand that. And so once I kind of embraced that, okay, you know, we’re not going to have anybody just buying these things. Everybody’s going to want to test them. Okay. You know. So I had to put together an entire test protocol because most people really don’t understand how to test something. You know? And that’s not to be a slam. Most people have not had, you know, any statistics background. I mean, when I was at caterpillar, I was fortunate to go through a whole Six Sigma black belt training and kind of have a better understanding of statistics than most people out there.
And so I’m happy to share that knowledge. But, Just a little funny thing. I have a number of customers who will. Will say, well, okay, well, I’ll buy one and try it. And so I have to explain, well, you really can’t buy one. You know, if you think about okay, you flip a coin, for example, and it lands on heads. So you know then that every time you flip a coin, it’s going to land on heads, because that’s what your data shows, you know? Well, we all know that’s not right. You know, because you only had a sample of one. It’s it’s not valid. You think about a mining truck and what you know, what can affect its fuel economy. You got tire pressure, you got road conditions, you got altitude, you got all kinds of things. A driver variability can be 5% by itself. You know, from a, you know, eco sensitive driver. And one is not.
So you have to have enough data. So, you know, I’ve, I’ve taken a lot of time to, to put together almost a course. I’ve written a white paper on this. How you test something to help people kind of understand. You can’t just buy one and throw it on and see what happens. You know, that’s that’s not a statistically valid. And you know, if, if you’re if you if you went to your CEO with that kind of data, they’d probably throw you out. you have to have more something more statistically valid. So that was kind of a lesson early on. Another thing, and here’s something actually, I’m still I’m still working on mastering. I’m a long way from mastering. This is once somebody even runs a successful test. And there’s some people excited about it and they know that this thing works, they know they’re going to get five, seven, eight, 10% fuel savings. Whatever they’re testing is shown. Getting it across the finish line within their company is a whole different story, though.
you know, you have to kind of manage the expectations of all the people above, the person who you’ve been working with. And that’s tricky. And I’m still learning how to do that, but that’s really essential because I’ve had a number of situations like that, you know, or successful test. You know, they’ve invested money in buying these things and invested the time and effort to test them. And then somebody above them just doesn’t know enough about it. Somebody who’s never seen any of the presentation, somebody is just convinced it’s all, you know, magic. And it doesn’t work. Yeah. And so the whole thing just goes south that way. So I’m still learning how to navigate that, frankly.
Human Psychology and the Resistance to New Technology
Right. Well, and you know, that in and of itself is the essence of the biggest challenge, particularly when it comes to innovative ideas. And, you know, the the thing that might come out of a laboratory with great results is going to take a while to embrace. I mean, you know, I think of the stories of, of of basic evolution of technology and, and even Illustration.
You know, people people didn’t embrace the automobile when it first came out. You know what a lot of people said? No, I don’t want to get into that. Yeah. And and, you know, there’s that personal bias about things and the ability to to think more openly and be curious about good opportunity. That’s a, that’s a human element that may always trump bona fide technology.
So yeah, just just studying a little bit of plain old human psychology. And you might not even need to take any courses on it. Just observing throughout your life what people do.
Well, you know, not not to get too far off our topic, but even to your point about embracing AI. I was in a meeting yesterday, and I was given a great quote that I’m going to grab for myself now, and that is that for those that are afraid of being replaced by AI, that’s not the issue. You’re going to get replaced by the person who knows AI.
Yeah, yeah.
And I thought, wow, that that is a great statement for I think the, the better reality of where we are with this whole AI evolution going on.
Yeah. I thought a little bit about the AI thing too. And if you just take it, zoom back and take a look at all of history, every time there’s been a major, major technology change, it almost always winds up being much better for the world. You know, like you mentioned automobiles, you know, so people who made buggy whips, you know, yes, they did go out of business, but then they went to work for Ford building cars, and they made a lot more money doing that than they did, you know, predicting buggy whips. Yeah. But and then they I remember one of the reasons Ford paid so good is so my employees could afford to buy my cars, you know. Yeah. And so, you know, that’s just the way it’s almost always been, you know, going back, printing press, whatever. You know, it’s always been a good thing for the world. And people adjusted.
Full Circle: AI and the Return of Big Data Centers
Yeah. And you also mentioned the big data centers.
You know, we’re coming full circle. There was once upon a time we had big data centers. That’s the way business ran. You you had to have that giant computer that covered a city block. It had to be in the data center somewhere. And we got rid of those because we, we were able to refine with the desktop and micro technology that we got into. But here we are where the whole circle has gone all the way around, and we’re back into the need for big data centers again. And so it’s a it is an interesting study if you’re willing to look at the history of it. It’s as as the Good Book tells us, there’s nothing new under the sun.
Yeah. That’s right.
Closing Thoughts
So well Brian you mentioned the web link. And folks we will have that in the show notes as always. Any closing thoughts you’d like to share?
I’m excited to kind of, you know, be on programs, you know, like yours and talk to other, you know, talk to people.
Just kind of let them know that this is an option. Because when I first discovered this, I was very, you know, skeptical. But, I mean, this thing has been around for over 20 years, but really, it never wears out even because, you know, when people hear that, they’re like, oh, right. Yeah, sure. But the fuel just flows over it. It’s a catalytic reaction. It doesn’t dissolve into the fuel or anything. And so anyway, I, I after I got over my skepticism, after I, you know, read reams of reports, talked to customers, flew down to Florida where these things are ex-employees even, you know, to try to dig up the dirt on what’s going on here. And, you know, after I did my due diligence, I was like, yeah, this is this is cool. And so I’m just excited to have people know that it’s an option, you know, if it’s not for you, if it, you know, like I just talked to a customer yesterday, they don’t burn enough diesel.
So the payback was going to be, you know, not very good at all. So, you know, that’s that’s great. I recommended that they go find something else, you know. But you know, if you’re if you’re drinking diesel like a, like a over-the-road truck or anything like that, you know, let’s talk because this is an option that you probably didn’t know about because it’s not been greatly promoted really over these years. So I’m trying to change that and get the word out. And here’s an option you probably didn’t know about. You know and it’s well proven. It works. Take 5 to 7% out of your cost and your CO2. It’s a win win win. So I’m excited. You know I’m I can feel good getting up in the morning knowing that I’ve got something that’s good for everybody. It’s a win win win. I’m not trying to talk into any talk anybody into something that really isn’t, you know, isn’t the greatest.
Well good deal. Well, again folks, as always, we’re we’re going to have those links in the show.
Notes. So.
Decarbonize.Com.
Right. Yep. And Brian, one last time. Thank you for sitting in. Really appreciate your time here with us.
I’m glad to share my stories. Yeah. Doug, thanks.
And this is the point of the show, folks. I want to remind you, we’ve got a video version. You’ll see the device in hand. And check that out over on YouTube channel by the same name. Leadership powered by common sense. Check us out and give us a comment. Thumbs up, thumbs down, whatever. Join the channel if you will. That’s how we pay most of our light bills around here. Speaking of energy. But with that, I’m going to sign off. Say goodbye. Go out there and make it a great day.
Meet Our Guest – Brian Livingston
I am a Chemical Engineer and spent the last ~20 years of my career with Caterpillar, in their Diesel Engine Division. I don’t claim to be the sharpest pencil in the cup, but I do know a bit about diesel engines and chemistry. When I left Caterpillar, I happened to stumble across this very interesting technology manufactured by Rentar. At first, I was very skeptical and doubted the technology’s claims. I thought that if this is true, then it can absolutely revolutionize diesel engines and bring a step-change in performance (both efficiency and emissions). So, being an Engineer, I seriously dug into it to investigate. If I was going to put my efforts and reputation behind this, I had to be sure.
So, I flew down to Florida to see the factory, interview the president, the inventor, the CEO, former employees, and visit customers myself and hear directly from them. Then I read reams of test reports and customer’s reports about what this has been proven to do. Then I studied and understood the chemistry & physics of what is happening in the catalyst. After all that, I was convinced that this technology is real, and the world needs it.
With my background and my conviction that the world needs this technology, I started Zelkam to push this into the world of diesel. Whether it’s trucks, mining machines, gensets, ships, port equipment, rail, buses, or oil-fired boilers/furnaces, this can make a significant improvement in cost, carbon footprint, decarbonization, sustainability, greenhouse gas CO2 emissions, and global climate change. We’re all-in, and urge you to seriously investigate the benefits this can bring to you and your organization. We have saved customers millions of liters of diesel and many thousands of tons of CO2. Reach out below and let’s talk – why not?
We now have the privilege of working with a number of close associates around the world as we work together to get this technology into various diesel markets. We work virtually and cover a lot of areas. We all believe the world needs this technology.
www.zelkam.com
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