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Coach the Person, Not the Problem — with Dr. Marcia Reynolds
Introduction
Hey, everybody, good to have you again. Join our show. This is leadership powered by common sense. When you’re in a leadership role and you’re trying to deal with your people, are you one that deals mainly on problem solving, you know, focusing on the problem?
Or have you ever spent time really trying to work with the person that might be sitting across from you? Today we’re going to dive into that area. My guest is someone who specializes in that and has a book. Her name is Doctor Marcia Reynolds. She’s from the Phoenix area. And Marcia, welcome to the show.
Thank you. Doug. I’m happy to be here.
Meet the Guest: The Accidental Career
It’s a little bit of a tradition. I like to ask my guests to give us a quick flyover of the journey that got you into the work you’re doing now.
Well you know. One thing that I recognize in all my years in research that a lot of us have, like accidental careers.
We start going in one direction and then they have somewhere else. And that’s mean. Yeah. Right. And so I actually my second masters was broadcasting and I ended up pushing television sets around a psychiatric hospital. So but it was for the training department.
And then when my boss fired the, the soul trainer, it was for three hospitals and then decided to get her doctorate. She dumped the whole training department in my lap. And my first assignment was management training. And that kind of launched the career from there.
and, you know, use the manuals, figure out what to do, because I hadn’t been a manager, but people were, I guess, because I said I didn’t know they were willing to help. Which is an interesting thing, since we always think we have to know and put up that we have the answers. But that was we learn together.
And then I decided I actually went for a second master’s in instructional design, because I figured this is where I want to go.
From Technology Training to the Birth of Coaching
And I and at that point moved into technology. And it was just when desktops were coming out and laptops and shifting into technology there. You know, they talk about all the fear around AI.
Well, there was a lot of fear around PCs are going to take over our lives, and they kind of do, but not in the way that people thought that we’d have leisure time. but did a lot of work around technical training, sales training.
But with all the change that was happening so fast, there was such a need to bring people together, to innovate together, solve problems together. But in a very siloed, functional company, that wasn’t happening. That company was world leader in dumb technology and couldn’t make the shift.
I left as after they were sold twice and got into semiconductor, which was the other way around. They were just kind of starting a spinoff and not sure if they were going to succeed. And we ended up being the number one revenue producing IPO in three years because everyone knew they had to get together and figure things out together.
And we had the, the, the CEO redid the organization into cross-functional business units. I had to then train them how to solve problems together, how to respect each other at different levels.
And and it was hugely successful but then got the word okay, you’ve been successful at your work. Now go fix the fix the factory. We don’t need that anymore. Like we don’t need to continue these programs as we get successful. And I also got a kind of a hint that I’d hit the glass ceiling.
So my last day of my last job, somebody sent me this article. It was 1995 about this thing coaching. And I thought, well, this is an interesting thing, and it looks like it’s a different way of helping people to learn, grow, understand what they need to develop.
And so I watched a coaching demonstration and I signed up right there. And my school started the International Coach Federation. So that’s how I got in there in the ground up, helped to build that out.
And and I just found that I loved coaching because of the impact that we can make quickly in creating sustainable change, which is what I had been seeking for years in my research and and going out to whatever workshop seminars.
Getting to the Root Cause of How People Think
And, you know, that’s what I wanted to learn. And it inspired me even to get my doctorate in kind of neuro learning, you know how. What is it in the brain that that needs to change to really change people’s behavior?
To where it’s not like, you know, in, in the tech world, they always talk about you have to do a root cause analysis of a problem. Otherwise it’s going to just keep popping up. It’s the same thing with coaching.
You know, that we if we can get in there and really look at who the person is and how they’re thinking and shift that, you know, then the problem won’t keep showing up in other ways. So I’m always excited to learn more, share more in all my books. And so it’s been a you know, it’s been a fun journey. Yeah. That’s great.
Key Discussion Point 1: The Accidental Leader
Yeah. Well, you mentioned, you know, accidental careers and not always having a perfect roadmap for where your career is going. But I talk a lot about Accidental Leader.
You know, people. Yeah. Join businesses, take jobs. And the next thing you know, they’re they’re invited to become a manager through a promotion and maybe have never, ever thought about that idea of leading people and influencing how people act and operate at work.
And that can that can iterate a couple of times. There can be several promotions before the company says, you know, we’re going to give you a coach, we’re going to give you some help in figuring this out. And that’s a pattern I see repeated time and time again.
Well, exactly what you were saying. They’re usually promoted because they’re good. Good at what they do, not necessarily how they have any idea how to lead people. And so they go into the position thinking, all I need to do is make people do what I do, you know.
Double down on the work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do it my way. And I and that they have to know the right way to do it. That’s really heavy with sales leaders especially.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And you’re right. It just keeps. You know, even though every level of leadership. There’s things you need to let go of and things you need to take on. It’s, you know, it should be. Looking at who I am as a leader changes at every level.
But you’re right. It’s not until they’re kind of buried underneath engagement problems and and people not willing to change and all of that that, that it’s finally it has to be almost like chaos or disaster before. Oh, well, maybe we should get you a coach. So.
Yeah.
Key Discussion Point 2: The Book — Coach the Person, Not the Problem
Well, tell us a little bit about. Well, first give us the name of your latest book and talk to us a little bit about the premise behind it.
Yeah.
It’s called coach the person, not the problem. It’s the second edition. So I, I’ve written there’s a book in between the first edition breakthrough coaching that really looking at? What is it that we do when we coach that really shifts people’s perspective of situations and themselves, that then they see exactly what it is they need to do to solve their problems.
And these aren’t always comfortable conversations. You know, we’re not trying to fix people, heal people, make them feel better. We’re trying to help them think better.
You know, so even the book before my first one I had wrote for leaders called The Discomfort Zone about, you know, what discomfort is a part of learning. Get comfortable with it. And and the thing is, it was a lot more coaches than bought it, than leaders.
I even had this one leader say, no, no, no, you need to tell me how to feel comfortable, not make people uncomfortable. And I’m like, you know, but you got to have courage to state what needs to be said, what you see, to get into the fire with them? Yeah.
Reshaping Your Relationship With Fear and Doubt
Yeah. I’m a firm believer of the premise. It’s, you know, it’s not about eliminating fear and doubt. It’s it’s reshaping your relationship with fear and doubt that is going to allow you to move forward. Because, you know, I hear a lot of people talking about the uncertainty in business and the world around them today.
And and that’s true. That’s that’s an accurate statement for a lot of reasons.
Yeah.
But the challenge is, okay, if that’s true.
What are you going to do about it? Are you going to run.
And hide, or are you going to think about it differently and maybe carve out and identify some opportunity rather than threat?
Absolutely. Absolutely. You’re exactly right on with that. You know, and the idea, well, we could just wait it out till it’s over. It’s like no. And even if it if it evens out some. When we have a little bit more certainty, it’s all going to be different anyway, right? You never go back to something.
Yeah.
Key Discussion Point 3: Leading Through the Uncertainty of AI
Well, and to your earlier point, you know, there are a lot of people focused on the advent of AI being that one of the greatest uncertainties that they’re dealing with in a leadership role, not knowing what really AI is going to look like at the end and how we’re going to be deploying it.
And I was there, too, just as you described. You know, I’ve been through the conversion from city block size mainframes to desktop to handheld to.
Bluetooth.
To, yeah, you know, 5G and beyond. And, you know, there has been levels of panic and uncertainty at every one of those changes.
Absolutely.
And surprised we got through it.
Now.
Did people have jobs change? Yes. You know, there were whole classes of jobs that don’t exist anymore. But that’s been true for all of mankind.
Right.
We don’t have as many people shoeing horses as we once did.
You know. Right.
You know that there are changes that are happening that are going to drive that constantly, and you might as well change your thinking about it so you can at least start to become a little more curious and less judgmental and move forward.
Yeah.
Well, and you know, and not stay in that fear of this is going to take all our jobs away because as you said, it just changes.
Then the jobs change. So if these things are going away, what’s emerging that that will be needed and recognize that we’re going to have to shift and change in our on our career path. That’s just normal.
You know, I don’t. The idea that you can choose one profession and stay with that forever, unless you’re a doctor, lawyer or, you know, and even that changes. Even that changes. I used to live with a physician, and he was always angry because everything was changing.
So.
Key Discussion Point 4: Where Coaching Your People Actually Starts
Well, let me ask you. So speaking from a position in leadership, what’s a person to do with this idea of starting to think about coaching the person, not the problem?
Yeah.
Well, where where is that thinking really start? If you’re in a position of responsibility and have a team of people that are accountable to you.
Yeah.
You know, when it comes back to what is your definition of of leader? Are you there to, you know, manage the process and outcome or as a leader, are you there to help people that work for you to think for themselves.
So you don’t always have to be the one they go to for answers. And the higher you go up in leadership, you know. Then if you’re a leader of leaders, then your main responsibility is to develop the mindset of other leaders.
You know, so there is succession planning and you have people that know how to think at that level. And so getting in mind. That’s a shift of identity that a leader has to have that okay. My job is to help them think.
So. First I need to start off just being curious how they think you know, and not assuming I know exactly how they see this problem because you don’t, you know.
Invite First, Then Get Curious
And so so even if you were to start with some feedback, you know, well, this is what happened the other day and, and it ended up, you know, the meeting fell apart and all that. Would you be willing to take a look at what went on and see if we can see other possibilities? So first you invite and then start with, so tell me what you saw and what you think happened.
You know. So we get them to talk about the story they’re holding, and instead of just telling them, go do something different, which they may do and but they’ll forget after a while.
So it’s that curiosity, you know, how do you see it? What do you think was that needs to be addressed to to make this work better? What do you think is is stopping that from happening?
You know, which then the person, not only do they start thinking of new ideas, but they feel seen, heard and valued. And what is that? The basis of internal motivation, which is long term, is that I feel like you see me, you care about me, you want to develop me.
And and and that’s what develops loyalty to a manager. So just even listening and being curious. Start there and what difference that makes.
Key Discussion Point 5: Ask at Least Three Questions
Well, when I think in, I’ve certainly seen it time and time again. Part of it too, is tied to that mentality that we were talking about earlier the accidental manager, the the, the exceptional individual contributor that gets promoted into management.
Yeah.
And then does handle people bringing them problems as just a giver of solutions. You know, when one of their team members will bring them an issue and say, hey boss, I’ve got a problem, blah, blah, blah.
And if you’re that individual, you just kind of immediately react and go, oh, well, here’s the solution. You know, do this, do that, and do do you know, be gone. And the individual employee doesn’t learn a thing in that process if that’s your approach. I encourage people to use a trigger that that says simply ask three questions?
Yeah. Here is three. You know.
You.
You can win.
At least three questions. Be curious.
At least. Yeah.
At least when the person comes and says, hey boss, I’ve got a problem, blah blah, blah, then you as a leader need to say, well, what else have you thought about? What else do you know about this? Who else have you talked to?
There’s there’s a lot of pertinent questions that can be asked and not asking them in a judgmental way, you know, hey, are you a dummy? You know why? Not that at all, but rather, rather just showing them that.
In fact, in most cases, they probably know better and.
Know more.
Than they think they.
Know.
They’re just missing a little confidence about the work.
Confidence, Not Competence
It is about confidence, isn’t it? Not about competence. and because most we’ve created learned helplessness where they don’t stop to think for themselves. I’ll just go to the boss.
Right.
And you know what? A colleague of mine, when we used to teach, leadership coaching together. And he always tells the story when he was managing a movie set and everything was going wrong, the actor wasn’t there, the food hadn’t arrived. The script changes, you know, weren’t quite complete.
And he ran to the director and listed out all the problems. And the director said, wow, I can’t wait to see how you handle this. And of course, what did he do? He went out back and handled it, you know, I mean, honestly, can the person not do it? They’re probably just, you know, I don’t know what to do.
And if you’ve created it to where you make it easy. So when leaders say to me, but I don’t have time to do that coaching thing, I said, oh, I get it.
You have all the time in the world to have them keep coming to you all day long and asking you questions, and then you don’t get your work done, and that you’d rather do that than take a little time to get them to think for themselves so they don’t have to come back to you.
Right. So. Right.
Key Discussion Point 6: Walking the Logic Tree Together
And you know, that process of sharing the wisdom about how to get to a solution. When I talk to my clients about their own ability to solve it, inevitably somewhere buried in there is a is a logic tree that it’s it’s kind of the classic if then well if this is true then that the next step is this.
And then we go here, we go there. You know, whatever the path may be to get to the solution. And if you have this dialogue with the individual talking about those, you know, branches on that tree, then the person can pick up and go, oh, that’s how I put that together.
Okay, now I got it. I can do that.
They can do that. And most of the time they can. I mean, you know, even if you just say to them, you know, you’ve been doing this a long time, I bet you have some thoughts that maybe you just aren’t sure about. Would you? Do you want to explore them with me? Right. You know, and just open it up that way.
Right.
So they understand what you’re doing. Because sometimes if you just start by asking the questions and that’s not your pattern, then they may think something. You’re doing something to them.
Right. Great.
Call out. And when when we when I talk with my clients about this very thing, I encourage them to tell their people that they are going to enter a new chapter in their own development, in their own ability as a as a leader, and they are going to start having more dialogue about it. And to your point, it’s not passing new judgment.
It’s helping grow and helping develop. And it is very important that if that’s not been their habit and pattern, that they do explain it.
Right, right. And because it says, though, when they explain it, I believe in you. Right. And I believe what you’re capable of doing. And I’m here to help you develop that.
Key Discussion Point 7: Navigating the Spectrum of Resistance
Yeah.
So shifting gears just a little bit back to the. So for the manager that says, yes, I do want to be a coach of my people. There’s inevitably a spectrum of how the people on your team are going to respond to that.
There’s going to be those on one end that will be very skeptical, those on the other end that’ll be really hungry and excited that it is happening. And then everybody in between. Well, what do you tell people about the best way to sort of navigate that spectrum?
Yeah. Well hesitation, resistance they’re all just human emotions. You know, first off you have to monitor yourself. So if you get in there with somebody who is resistant, doesn’t want to answer your questions, whatever.
Don’t get triggered. You know, just say, okay, well, this is fascinating. there’s some, you know, and, and and say, I would call it out and just say, you know, I really want to work this through with you because I think you have some good ideas.
So what is it that you think is is is that you don’t like this process? You know, I notice that, you know, you’re not really going into the answers to my questions. So I’m just wanting to know what is is on your mind right now so we can figure this out together.
And so sometimes you just have to stay with them. You know, I get clients and I’m sure you do that. They were kind of told they need to talk to you. And so they come into the coaching like, okay, I’m here.
But you know, I’m always like, okay, this time is your time. You know, what is it that that. Is there anything let’s start there that you look at that you’re having difficulty with maybe some other people or some other department that you and I can talk about and see if we can find some ways to work that through so we can develop a little bit of trust and safety in this process.
You know, because that has to come first. So what you’re saying that people are eager, they’re already like all in, but the ones are not. They’re just, not sure what this is. And and are they going to fail in this process? Are they not going to give you the right answers? So, you know, we just kind of hold a space that we will get there, but it may take us a little longer.
Key Discussion Point 8: What About the Command-and-Control Manager?
I know there will be people out there that might get an opportunity to hear this episode, and they’re going to be probably rolling their eyes a little bit, maybe because they were raised up under more of the rigid command and control type mindset.
And I’ve heard it spoken, you know, I’m the manager, by golly, you you know, I don’t have time for all that. Just get on with it. I’m paying you to do a job. You know, we don’t need all this huff and fluff and you know, what are we doing here when we talk about this?
And, you know, it’s it’s number one, I personally count that as very unfortunate if that’s somebody’s mindset in the modern age.
But there will be those out there that are thinking that way and maybe even there. It’s not a totally a factor of age. Maybe they were raised up that way, and that’s the only managerial behavior that’s been demonstrated to them. So that’s what they do.
Yeah.
Well it also comes back to how they define leader. You know who they are that well I’m the one that people come to for answers. And so that’s how they behave.
But what you said in the modern age, when I was working in corporate, you know, I always wanted my boss to trust that I was smart enough, you know, to work with me, that to to see me, to hear me. But I didn’t expect it, you know, I knew he was just going to give me what he thought, and then I’d go away and do what I thought.
But the employees expect it now. There’s an expectation that you will listen to me. I do have things to say. Whether they’re right or wrong, it doesn’t matter.
You Will Lose Your Best People
They want to be listened to. They want to be seen. They want development. And you will lose your best people. You know, the ones that are mediocre may not be able to get a job somewhere. They’ll stay, but your best people will leave, you know?
So. So there’s two things. Do you want to retain your high achievers? Then you need to to to help them think through problems because that’s what they want. They don’t want to be told what to do.
And then you’re looking at there are those that can be developed, you know. So so it’s that I want to factor. It’s not just skills and knowledge you’re working with. What does it take to motivate people to give their best effort that just don’t do that naturally, like the high achiever.
And that takes a relationship. You know that I spend time with you, I listen to you. I help you think through this so you can start seeing things on your own and develop your confidence and your internal motivation, your desire.
Because I wow, this manager really wants to help me to grow in my career. So I’m going to do that, you know? So you really have to look at that that equation today. What does it take for people to want to give their very best that discretionary effort? They may do their job, but you want them to give more, right. And you can’t just dictate that.
Key Discussion Point 9: The Discretionary Effort Zone
No, no. Yeah.
I talk with clients a lot about that discretionary effort zone that when you can get a team operating in their own personal discretionary effort level, you’ve really done something as a leader, because when that kicks in, everybody is there willing to help their colleagues. They’re willing to share and write, react and respond together in unison without a lot of the direct input from the boss.
You know.
They’ll they’ll they’ll follow the rules and procedures. They’ll they’ll give it their best effort and maybe a little extra effort. And that’s where you want to be as a as a leader, influencer, as get your team performing at that discretionary effort level.
That’s much easier said than done.
Yeah, but it’s interesting. I’m working with the leader right now. And and when he realized that he was, everybody was always coming to him and waiting for him to make decisions. You know, he said, okay, I got to change that. I need to trust them to do that.
So that what did he do? He just said, okay, I’m not coming to your meetings anymore. Go to it. Hahaha. And and they were kind of like floundering around. Nobody stood up to be a leader.
So there’s still a transition, and the leader still needs to set out the expectation of what the what it is that it’s going to be. You know, the vision of what it is this team is going to create, you know, and to be there if they really have stumbling blocks and to make sure that there’s somebody that does become the leader of the team just to to hold accountability.
Yeah.
You know, so when we do team coaching, you know that always, you know, how are you going to make decisions together.
And how are you going to share leadership in this. Who’s responsible for just making sure people meet deadlines.
Closing Thoughts
Right. Yeah right.
All good points. Well, Marcia, I think we’re about up on time for today. This has been wonderful. It’s been a pleasure talking with you. Tell people the best way to get in touch with you.
Well, my website is Outsmartyourbrain.Com.
Easy to remember, and that’s probably the best. But if you’re on LinkedIn, I’m definitely there and happy to answer your questions. I get them all day long, so I monitor that.
Wonderful.
Well, as always folks, we’re going to have those links in the show notes for you. So feel free to hop down, check them out, and I’ll have my links in the show notes as well. If you want to get ahold of me and need some help with your leadership situation or your business, would love to weigh in. offer free exploratory call. No obligation, no hard sell. Just let’s talk about your situation.
We’ll just decide what you really want to do next. But for now, I think we’re wrapped up. We’re going to say goodbye and go out there and make it a great day.
Meet Our Guest – Marcia Reynolds, PsyD, MCC
Dr. Marcia Reynolds is passionate about how coaching generates learning and growth. She was the 5th global president of the International Coaching Federation and is in the ICF Circle of Distinction for her contributions to the global coaching community. She has published 5 books including her international bestseller, Coach the Person, Not the Problem. She has a doctorate in organizational psychology and two master’s degrees in communications and adult learning.
Website: https://covisioning.com
LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/marciareynolds/
YouTube https://youtube.com/user/MarciaReynolds
Instagram https://www.instagram.com/dr_marcia_reynolds/
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