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Why Empathy Is the Missing Key to Effective Leadership — with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller
Introduction
Hey, if being empathetic as a leader kind of sets you off and gets you, anxious about things or maybe even upset about the idea. I’ve got news for you. It’s it’s a critical part of effective people leadership and management. And today we’re going to dive right into that. My guest is a lady named Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, a mouthful, but there is a hyphen in there somewhere. Melissa, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me. Doug, I’m so excited to be here.
Absolutely. as is always a tradition here, tell us a little bit about your background and your journey to get to where you are in this important area.
Meet the Guest: From French Horn to Empathy Expert
You bet. Because it was not linear, no one wakes up and says, I’m going to be an empathy expert. You know, at least nobody I know of. So I actually started out as a performing musician. I played French horn, I played in orchestras.
I got to play with people like Ray Charles and Mannheim Steamroller, and I got to travel and and do that kind of thing, and I loved it. But I also really like food, shelter and clothing. And being a performing musician isn’t always very stable. So I got my first doctorate and went to become a professor. And while I was there, I dealt with leadership that was just awful. It was so toxic and destructive, and especially in an area like music where nobody’s life is on the line, nobody is going to die. Nobody. You know, the urgent things that we think about just aren’t part of the arts. And eventually it got bad enough. I had to leave my job and I did. I, I kind of went in with my husband. He was already doing health care consulting, like for smaller organizations, pain clinics, surgery centers, those kind of things. And the thing is, is I kept seeing the same problems happening over and over and over, with the leadership not being able to understand their people and really stepping in it in the process.
You know, losing profit, losing innovation. Attrition rates were terrible. And I was just like, you know, this isn’t an accident. I keep seeing it. It keeps happening. I don’t understand where the disconnect is. Where’s the disconnect? So I did what I do and I went back to studying it. I’m actually finishing my second doctorate now. It’s an interdisciplinary leadership with a dissertation on empathy and leadership. And I’m absolutely convinced that that this is the key, that ability to take perspective as human beings. I think that’s the thing that leaders are really missing.
Leaders by Accident
You know, it’s interesting you allude to a concept that I’ve talked a lot about, and that is that most leaders in the business world are there by accident. Yes. And what I mean by that is, you know, the the best individual contributor in the health care industry. It might be the best specialist or, you know, the smartest surgeon or whatever. they get recognized for their performance and are asked to be a department head or a, you know, specialty chief or something like that.
And that has no correlation with whether or not they have a capacity to lead whatsoever. Yes. And in, you know, in, in the rest of the business world, it, I, I’m sure there are studies out there. I haven’t looked for them yet, but I’m sure there are studies out there that have some statistics about that promote the brightest bulb is going to get you, you know, the right thing in leadership. I would estimate there’s at least a 50% fail rate in that model and maybe more. And, you know, whoa. It is to the people that report to that person that just got dropped into a management seat. If they haven’t been able to figure it out or they don’t have a capacity. And as as we will dive into here, the emotional intelligence to properly assess everything and, and get things on a right track. But, let’s, let’s kind of dive right into your area. What made you connect the empathy part of leadership with emotional intelligence?
Well, I actually started with emotional intelligence because that’s when I started my doctorate.
That’s where I wanted to go with this. I wanted to look at it. I wanted to study it. I wanted to figure it out because the first paper on emotional intelligence was published in 91, which means we’ve been messing with this now for 35 years, and we’re still having trouble being able to make it useful the way it should be. And it’s just the farther I got into it, because empathy is considered, you know, if you look at so 95 is when Daniel Goleman published his book on emotional intelligence, and he had five different areas. And one of those was empathy. But I just kept looking at this and I’m like, yeah, but you’ve got to be able to use empathy to take the perspective of the other person before you can effectively use emotional intelligence, but you’ve got to understand who you’re working with before you know which tools to use. And so I just I kept kind of teasing it out from the rest of it because it seemed to be foundational, like maybe, I don’t know, but maybe that’s what we’re missing.
You know, because without that foundational piece, nothing else sets the way it could.
Command and Control vs. Leading an Organism
Yeah. Well, perhaps, you know, part of the thinking is that there are so many modes of management that are talked about management styles and, you know, chief of which might be that very old school, traditional command and control. You know, the classic My Way or the highway? There’s not a lot of empathy in that. There’s like probably zero. Zero empathy. It’s like. And and it leads to things like, you’re having a bad day. Buck up. I pay you to do the work. Get busy. You know, I need you to deliver. I need you to execute. And, there’s no empathy about that.
No, there isn’t, but the thing is, is that if that’s how you’re going to treat your people, and it’s been shown over and over again, that command and control style leadership really doesn’t work. That’s why we’ve moved to other models and even, you know, specifically broken it down into transformational leadership and servant leadership and, and authentic leadership.
You know, the command and control style. It really is management. It’s exactly like you said. And if you think about management, it goes back to the industrial revolution and treating the organization like a machine. And the people that are in it are cogs, which means if one is broken, you can plug it in and pull it out and find another one just like it. And we need managers there. You know, there has to be people that make the systems run, and that’s completely understandable. But that is completely different than leadership, where you are treating the organization like an organism. This is something that is going to grow hopefully and evolve, but can also die if you don’t treat it correctly. And we’re not dealing with Cogs. We’re dealing with systems. You have a nervous system, you have a brain, you have a cardio system. And each of these have to work and work in tandem, which means your leader has to be able to nurture this organism. So we’re really dealing with two different concepts.
Yeah I like that framework that you just described. And in the, you know, the, the model of thinking of a business as an organism rather than a machine is, is, you know, I think a popular trend that’s been written about quite a bit. And I do believe there’s so many examples of that where ultimately the leadership comes to kind of their own moment. And when they shift their thinking that, you know, this is not just a process driven machine, this is a an organism that needs the people to be the lifeblood that we have here. How do I get more out of them?
Yes, yes. And how do you make it so that they want to give more? It isn’t just about squeezing them until they give more. How do we get everybody on board? And that’s where your leader has to have that vision, you know, and the ability to actually say, yes, let’s let’s get in this boat together and I will navigate to where we need to go. You know, as opposed to just kind of beating people into submission because command and control, beating people into submission isn’t working.
Yeah. You know, and especially now in the age of AI, there’s just too much flux going on, right?
Yeah, there’s definitely been a shift in the in the mindset of the common the modern workforce. And you can you can pretty much put a pin right in 2020 with the Covid event, as well as the pivot point where people developed a different attitude about what work meant. Yes, on an individual level. And I think the first casualty of that was traditional command and control. I think that was the point you could put on the tombstone.
Yeah, I agree, I think it’s been on its way for a long time, but I think that was the last gasp I agree.
What Empathy Actually Means
Yeah. let me ask you this. When we think about empathy. Give us give us a starting point, a basic definition of what, proper or I don’t know, what is a good empathy mindset. What where, you know, where does all that start?
So it’s actually really simple. Empathy is the ability to take the perspective of the other person.
Now, there’s all these myths out there that it’s feeling. It’s all about feeling. Which is why leaders that I’ve worked with will tend to shy away from it because they’re like, it’s all feeling. It’s all touchy feely. I don’t want to get into that. It makes you weak, it makes, you know, this kind of thing, but it’s not. There’s actually 43 different definitions of empathy and the feeling I feel. What you feel is one you can take perspective of a person that way, but you can also do it cognitively. I logically understand what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling, what your situation is. I don’t feel anything. There’s somatic empathy, which is where you like feel it in the body. You know, I mean, there’s there’s a lot of different ways to take perspective, but at the end of the day, that’s what they all have in common. And it doesn’t matter if you’re doing sales or working with a board of directors or working with customer, that ability to take that perspective is the key to really being effective.
I like that, and I agree with you, that touchy feely persona that the topic of empathy has with a lot of leaders is unfortunate. because it. I’ve used the word and this might be improper from an academic standpoint, but I use the word the ability to connect. Just, you know, can can I, can I connect with my people? And, you often you hear about relatable and, and, what’s my other word? I was thinking of just traveling anyway. You you know that ability, you can communicate all day long, but if you’re not connecting with people, you’re you’re not going to have the the right alignment you need.
Yes, absolutely. You’re just kind of shouting out into the void. And that doesn’t actually do anybody any good.
Meeting People Where They Are: Maslow’s Hierarchy
Right, right. There’s another dimension here. And please correct me if you disagree and your studies have indicated otherwise, but I have often suggested people revisit the Maslow’s hierarchy if they really want to. Kind of lean into this empathy idea as a leader, and by that.
For those not familiar with Maslow. Maslow came up with the premise that there are rungs of development in our existence in this world, and the most basic is, am I even going to survive? And do I have shelter? Do I have safety? Do I have food? And then you, you rise above that and you want to start connecting with people. And then there’s another rung that you actually start talking about. You feel loved and appreciated. And then a couple more rungs, you finally get to this idea of self-actualization. You’re really operating at your prime. Yeah, but the practical reality, in my own experience, is we all show up to work every day kind of moving, bouncing up and down on different levels of that hierarchy. And if you had a horrific argument with your spouse on the way out the door, you’re kind of falling down on that hierarchy a little bit, and it’s going to be hard to cognitively apply yourself to your work. So if you’re the boss and you walk out and you see George or Sally doesn’t seem to be themselves, the empathetic leader is going to say, Hey, George, hey, Sally, you don’t seem to be yourself today.
Is there something you know I need to know about or can help you with? And to me, that’s the kind of the opening the door of empathy.
Yeah, no I agree. Well, first of all, I’m totally with you, Doug. I love Maslow. I love what he taught. And when you’re talking about those hierarchy of needs, that’s absolutely right. We have different drivers. So you’re not going to get the whole point is that you’ve got to have the stuff on the bottom to have the stuff at the top. So you’re not going to have employees that are self-actualized if they’re on the bottom worrying about survival, that sort of thing. So if you. You’re exactly right. If you have an employee come in and you know they’re worried about their survival because they’re worried they’re going to get kicked out of the house when they get home that night because they had a fight or whatever. They’re not going to be giving 100%. And even as a leader, you know, even if you just say, hey, I noticed there’s something up.
Do you want to talk about it? I can see that something’s going on. Is there a way we can shift this load? Just a little bit until we get you taken care of? And, I mean, I think there’s a big difference to as a leader in being able to ask that because there’s a big difference between. Yeah, well, today was just kind of a crummy day. My car didn’t want to work. Right. My coffee spilled and. But it’ll be all right. As compared to some of these horrific life circumstances. Right. You know, I mean, I was working with someone who his grandfather died and his, his place of employment was like, no, you can’t have a day off. Someone already has a day off. You know, and he found another job. And it was just that simple. All they would have had to do was let him take care of what he needed to personally, but they didn’t employ that empathy. And so they lost a good employee.
They lost all the institutional knowledge that went with that. They they had to take the time and the effort to find another person into that spot. So really, if you really want to think about it selfishly as a leader, when you do connect with other people, you are helping yourself.
Yeah, that’s a very interesting take. And I got to be honest, Melissa, I don’t think I’ve heard it put that way. and but I like that a lot because, and not to get people finding convenient excuses for why to be empathetic. I think it’s a genuine, you know, win win is what it is. I think about the cubbies seven habits, and one of them is, you know, look for the win win. Yeah. And in this case, the employee that’s having the bad day or the tough circumstance. If I can help you today, you’re going to help me tomorrow. And and that’s a good deal. That’s a win win.
Yeah. Goodwill and loyalty are priceless, right?
Self-Empathy: The Piece Leaders Miss Most
You know, when, we also think about empathy.
I think avoiding the, the touchy feely aspects are one of the big hurdles to get over, because whatever upbringing somebody has into management and leadership, they may be trying to emulate somebody before them. That was quote, quote I’m using air quotes now, folks that you know is successful. Yeah. and, you know, that’s a bad approach oftentimes because maybe you did get promoted into the role and you don’t have full privy of, of, how people felt about the person before them.
Right. And I find that a lot of times, the kind of empathy that leaders miss the most is self empathy. You know, even if they are willing to give it to others. It’s like you said, they get into these leadership positions because they have the biggest customers or they do the most work or whatever, but they’re never really trained to be leaders. So these are very intelligent people who get in there and go, yeah, you know what? I’m really not a leader. I don’t really know what I’m doing.
So they’re leaning on the stuff that came before them, you know. Whereas they need to have that empathy for themselves to say, okay, yeah, I’m not the best leader. I could really work on these skills, and I’m doing the best that I can, and I will do the best I can for my people. And that doesn’t mean necessarily just doing what everybody else has done, because everybody else has done it. You know, and understanding of yourself is going to go a long way to understanding other people.
Unlocking Discretionary Effort
Well, directly related to that, in terms of getting more from your people there, there is a principle that I talk about in one of my books that, the way I stated is I think everybody has a two gear capacity. The first gear is the one that will bring you to work, and you will perform the job as described and expected. You’ll fulfill KPIs and you’ll get the work done, you know. Again, with air quotes done. and and you know, companies need that, you know, at a baseline level.
That’s what you hope everybody will do. But what’s really powerful is to find an ability as a leader to get people to kick into that second gear, which is, I call it discretionary effort. They can choose to do more. And, you know, we we experience that when we talk about watching people go the extra mile or giving 110% or however you traditionally think about it. But as a leader, when you get your people voluntarily kicking into that second gear on a regular basis. And I had one example, I, I was working with a team, and the boss went out on the floor one day and he said, where’s Bill? And they said, oh, a colleague spoke up and said, oh, Bill had to go. He had a crisis at home and he left. But I’ve got his three things. I’m going to cover it today. You don’t have to worry about it. It’s already taken care of. Well, that’s discretionary effort. That’s, you know, the guy that didn’t wait for the boss to say, hey, Bill’s got to go.
Will you cover for him? the team was already operating at pretty high capacity, and and they just had this fluidity about themselves helping each other, and and that’s without the boss’s direct intervention on every step of the way. Now, you know, the boss did something to create that environment. Absolutely. But the fact that discretionary effort was a regular contribution to things in this team, you know, was a good sign for that leader.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it tells me that he’s modeling what they want because it’s one or what he wants. Because it’s one thing to just say, you know, I would like to have you, you know, give back in this manner. But it’s another to give in that way so that people model it back. That’s one of the beautiful things about empathy is when it’s working well, it works in both directions. So if as a leader, you’re modeling it and you’re taking other people’s perspective and you’re like, okay, they need this, this and this, they’re going to emulate that back and say, oh yeah, well, Bob had to go home.
But I know that in this meeting my leader needs this, this and this. So let’s give it back.
Opening the Lid: What Leaders Run Into First
I love that. Well, Melissa, what what have you run into when you work with leaders and you first kind of open the lid on this area of focus.
Usually it’s one of two things, because either they’re already buying into it and they already understand how important it is because it really is. But not everybody necessarily has a humanistic point of view, or they’re so blinded by the responsibilities of leadership that they can’t see it, you know. And so a lot of times it’s just me trying to get them out of all of the stuff that’s bearing down on them and helping them develop their leadership so that they can instill this empathy. The other part of it is there are still a lot of leaders that that just don’t necessarily buy into it. Well, everybody should leave their personal stuff at home when they come to work. And, you know, there’s there’s still some that buy into this command and control style.
And so I have to actually, you know, pull out the data and say, yes, but you’re losing profit, productivity and innovation. And these are things that you need to get done. There was a survey done by Ernst and Young right after, they were doing the Great Resignation. So it was after Covid, and they were actually looking at the Great Resignation and why everybody was leaving. Right. And they wanted to know about the effect of empathy. So they surveyed employees and leaders and everybody else. And what they found was that leaders that did use empathy increased productivity by 87%, pro innovation by 86%, and profit by 81%. Wow. So there is a bottom line reason to use this. So even if it’s the most command and control, you know, Montgomery Burns from The Simpsons kind of leader, which I don’t run into those really, which is great. But even if it were, there is a hard line reason to do it.
I love it. You know, the, what I was thinking is you say that I, I go back to my discretionary effort.
I, I think empathy applied properly, is a great catalyst for getting that discretionary effort. You know, the it’s human nature, I think for most people to say, hey, you did me a solid, now I’m going to give it back to you. You know, and and there’s this quid pro quo kind of thing that kicks in for most people. So to your point, if if the boss is, is modeling this and showing the empathy, showing the grace, showing the permission to deal with whatever you’re dealing with and, and basically, as we said, right at the start, meeting your employees where they are, they can’t help but respect that and admire that and feel that they’ve got to pay it back somehow. And I mean, in a healthy way, not in a controlled command and control kind of way.
The Dark Side: Performative Empathy
Yeah. Well, there is a dark side to that as well, because after this survey came out and a lot of people were talking about this and bringing empathy in. You know, post-pandemic, there were a lot of leaders that were giving it lip service.
You know, it’s in the mission, vision and values, but we’re not actually going to do it. We’re not actually going to model it. So it’s performative empathy, right. We’re performing what we think it should look like, but it’s not actually happening. And there was a second survey done by Ernst and Young, about 2 or 3 years after the first, that found that this actually hurts employers, that they would have been better off to just be command and control than to try and pretend and be insincere and use performative empathy. So, you know, it’s not just a matter of of putting on the costume. You have to actually do it.
Yeah. Or putting the words on the corporate wall. You know, that I just cringe when I, when I go into places that have, have done that sort of thing. And, and you quickly learn that culturally, none of the flash and pomp that’s reflected on the corporate wall or in the Corporate vision statement lives in the organization. It’s it’s just all eyewash.
Yeah. I, I have talked about a parallel experience I had with two companies and I’m not going to name names, but both of them had their corporate values and vision on little index cards that were, tucked in behind the security badges. You know, the card keys that everybody carried at these businesses. And one of the companies, it was described to me that everybody up and down the chain lived it. And it was not uncommon to be in a meeting making a big decision and see a senior exec flip his badge over and look down the list just to remind himself and say, you know what? If we go this way, we’re going to violate number three here, and we’re not going to do that. We’re going to live by this. This is our creed. This is what we do. So the decision for this is no, we’re not going to do it. And the other company. Everybody had the badge, but nobody ever looked at it. And, you know, it was time and money was spent producing this, these, tchotchkes to to remind everybody, but nobody lived it.
And and it had a very negative consequence. People had evidence you were supposed to be doing this, but we’re not we’re doing that. And it was a it was a real rub for middle management to, have to live that way.
Yeah, yeah. And people do know people think, you know, that maybe they don’t notice or they don’t pay. They’re not paying attention, but they know, you know, and and if you have a choice between working for a company that walks the talk or one that’s okay, wheezing, which are you going to choose? Because I want the one that does what they say they’re going to do, because I can trust they’re going to say what they’re going to do. The other one, if they’re going to, you know, eliminate that trust just in their top level mission, vision and values, then what else are they doing that I can’t trust?
Good People Want to Do Good Work
Right. Right. And you know that that gets to a premise that that to be honest and transparent. It took me a while to embrace this, and I wish I had embraced it much sooner in my career than I did.
But I the good news was I finally got to it, and now I embedded in all of my coaching and that is this. Good people want to do good work. And if you’ve hired good people for your team, they want to do good work. But as a leader, you have to help them understand what the next right thing is. And you have to keep that clarity out in front of them so that they then can turn their effort and and in an optimum world, their discretionary effort into that right thing so that they can be proud of the work they’re producing. And when and when you walk into a company that is living that way and operating that way, it’s you. It’s palpable. You can feel it, you can see it. There’s a there’s a kind of a hum in the organization that is is very noticeable. But when it’s absent you, you can hear and feel and see that as well.
Yeah. I have one leader that I interviewed that summed it up as being relentless, not ruthless, you know, relentless in that pursuit of excellence, relentless and never stopping to make this organization what it is, but never ruthless in that you’ll take advantage of people in the process.
Yeah. And similarly, I think I might have mentioned this on air before, but I’ve recently been introduced to a concept again. A leader I’m working with was given a 360 feedback and the chief message, and it was this leader is demanding but fair. And I thought, wow, that. I don’t know, that just struck me as an incredibly powerful statement for people. And again, this goes back to good people want to do good work. Good people are okay if you’re demanding, but you better be fair about how you’re doing it and how you’re administering, you know, your own coaching and direction when things need to be adjusted.
Yeah, absolutely. I’d actually take that as a huge compliment.
Oh, totally. Yeah, totally. Very, very good thing. What have we not covered yet? Melissa, I’m probably there’s a massive number of things. I’m sure your dissertation is much longer than this, but,
Boundaries: There Is No Empathy Without Them
Well, one of the main things that I do talk about are boundaries and how you can’t really have empathy without them, because that’s one of the things I’ve run across, is leaders that seem to think empathy is just about giving and giving and giving in and being the doormat.
And it’s like, no, you have to have boundaries. You cannot have empathy without them, you know? Because really what you’re doing is you’re setting up the distinction between being nice and being kind. When you say, okay, here’s my boundaries, I’m I’m nice is social lubricant. Nice is what we do to get by. We keep people comfortable, avoid confrontation. But unfortunately usually there’s an element of of insincerity. You’re just kind of doing it to get by, you know. And also there’s a compromise because it’s usually you’re like, okay, well, I’ll do it just this once. And that’s what happens with boundaries. Okay. I’ll let this boundary go just this once, okay. I’ll avoid this conflict just this once. And then pretty soon those boundaries are no longer in place. You’re much better off to be kind, meaning that you are always looking for the optimal outcomes of everybody involved, including yourself. You know not only yourself, but including yourself. So in setting these boundaries, you’re being clear about what you will and won’t tolerate.
Clarity is kindness, you know, and you’re not necessarily being nice. You’re not. You’re not avoiding conflict. You’re not giving in. You’re not, you know, making it easy. Sometimes being kind is the hard step. But the thing about empathy is, even though it’s not always very nice, it is always kind. So as a leader, I think it’s really important to know those distinctions and understand why boundaries are so important. You know, like you were saying, being demanding but fair, being kind is what’s going to allow you to be fair. Being nice is what’s going to allow you to be a doormat.
Empathy and Servant Leadership
Yeah, I think that’s always a tricky challenge when we talk about leadership. And there are many other attributes of leadership that we don’t have time to get into. But there’s always that element of, you know, going over boundary, over the boundary of being, giving and soft and, you know, not, not demanding the right standard. You know, I, I speak a lot about servant leadership, and that’s a, that’s a flashpoint term for a lot of people.
As soon as you speak it, you can see eyes roll every now and then. And, I caution everybody or a person that shows up with me that way is we’re not talking about giving in to everything. That’s that’s not it at all. You you have to have expectations. You have to have standards. You have to have the boundaries that that allow the business to operate as it should. And you have to enforce those. So you’re going to have poor performers that show up and you’re going to have to deal with them appropriately. Just because you take on the title of servant leader doesn’t mean you excuse that behavior.
Oh, I would say it even makes you more that you have to deal with that behavior, because by not giving them the feedback that they need. You’re robbing them of the opportunity to get better. If you want to serve them, you need to give them that opportunity. Even if it’s tough in the moment.
Closing Thoughts
I love it. Yep. Well said. Well, Melissa, I think we’re about up on time for today.
This has been great. I’m sure there’s tons more we could get into. tell people the best way to get in touch with you.
Yeah. You bet. So the easiest place is on my website, which is https://eqviaempathy.com/ and you can find my Ted Talk there. There’s a link to buy my book there. I have a newsletter and a blog and, and kind of anything interesting that’s that’s happening. or of course, you can always catch me on LinkedIn. I actually do a live stream there where I ask questions from the audience in real time every Wednesday night at 6 p.m. eastern. So either place you’ll find me.
That’s awesome. Well, as always, folks, we’re going to have that link in the show notes. So, By all means, check out Melissa’s work. And one last time. Melissa, thank you so much for being here. It really, really has been a pleasure.
Well, thank you, Doug. Pleasure’s all mine.
Well, folks, I do like to remind you, we have a video version of this show on YouTube, a channel by the same name.
Leadership powered by common sense. Hop over there, check us out and leave us some comments. Join the channel if you will, and you’ll get our updates on a regular basis. We did Eclipse episode 500 recently, so very proud of that milestone and thanks to everybody who helped me get that done. But for now, I think we’re wrapped up. We’re going to call it a day and go out there and make it a great one.
Meet Our Guest
Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller isn’t just talking about leadership: she’s challenging us to do it differently. With over 20 years of cross-industry experience, she helps leaders build emotionally intelligent cultures that don’t just feel better, they perform better. A TEDx speaker, EQ coach, and author of The Empathic Leader, Melissa blends research, real-world insight, and lived experience to make empathy actionable at every level of leadership. She’s on a mission to prove that the so-called “soft” skills are the ones driving the hard results — and the future of leadership depends on them.
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Website: https://eqviaempathy.com/
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