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How to Show Up, Speak Up, and Lead with Impact | Ep 495
A conversation with Carl DuPont, DMA — opera singer, executive coach, and co-author of The Presence Principle
Introduction
Hey, everybody. If you have been confronted with the notion that you need to boost your executive presence, I hear that a lot in the corporate world, and I think it applies in the entrepreneurial world, too. It’s kind of how do you show up? How do you make that great, memorable first impression? My guest today is going to help us understand some of that. His name is Carl DuPont. Carl, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much, Doug. I’m glad to be here.
Meet the Guest: From Opera Stage to Executive Coaching
How did you get into this fascinating work? What was your moment that made you want to focus in this space?
Well, we get so much training on how to be on stage as performers. My background is as an opera singer, and in my profession, they have what they call roll out of bed Arias. So we’re trained so that even if it’s not your best day, even if you get waking up at 3 a.m. in the morning, they roll you out of bed.
They say sing, you can present, you can perform at your best. And I realize that a lot of professionals aren’t getting that same type of training, and it’s simply a matter of practice makes permanent, not practice makes perfect. So whatever we practice, we get better at. But sometimes during the course of our lives, we’re practicing at not being our best, but just kind of getting by. And I believe that everybody has the potential to do really amazing things. And I wanted to share what I’ve learned as a performer and as a coach with everybody, so that they could perform just as well.
That’s an amazing sidelight. I didn’t realize that happened in the vocal world like that, but it does make sense. There are definitely when you think about the business world, there are moments when you get surprised and you’ve got a key client that wants to show up and talk or you’ve got an unexpected opportunity. Maybe you’re out at lunch and somebody you’re with introduces you to a really strong potential client, and you got to be on in that moment.
And I have talked about leadership as being on a stage of sorts. And when we kind of pivot the mental picture of that, most of my clients freeze. They like, oh, is that what we’re talking about? Well, yeah we are.
Yeah. Well, as Shakespeare said, and my colleague Alexa Chilcote always mentions, all the world’s a stage, and we have the front stage that we’re presenting to people, the backstage that we keep for our personal and our intimate relationships. But at every moment we’re being perceived and we’re communicating something. So even in that interaction that is unexpected, you’re communicating something. You’re either communicating, well, I’m not prepared for this or let’s go. I’ve been preparing for this my whole life.
Key Discussion Point 1: The Mental Shift to “Always Ready”
So what is the mental shift that has to start to get somebody to be ready to show up with whatever else they might have prepared or rehearsed?
So I think the first thing is to realize that you can do it. You can always be better. And there is no limit to what we are capable of as performers.
And I mean that in the sense of peak performers as business people as well as in any other relationship. So once you accept that, you can continuously improve. And we’re using the property of neuroplasticity, meaning that our brains continually form new synapses as we grow and age. Then you can say, well, if I can be better, what exactly do I need to be better at? And that’s when you can do an audit. So you could watch yourself speak with the sound off and see what you notice about your presentation. You can listen to yourself speak without looking and see what do you notice about your voice? You could also watch others and start to take notes. What kind of impression is this person leading and how? By doing those things, you start to create a repository of information that you can utilize when your time comes and when it’s your time to shine.
Key Discussion Point 2: Neuroplasticity and the Science of New Habits
And using that principle of neuroplasticity, the common phrase I’ve heard is that neurons that fired together, wired together. And that’s why we have the ability to learn new things as we experience something new and different.
It feels hard because our brains are working hard to find the optimal pathway to connect all that thinking. And if you just take a glancing run at something, you have that moment of that effort, but your brain doesn’t rewire until you begin the repetition of trying to do that new thing, whether it’s learning a skill or changing a habit.
Isn’t it so hard? It is so hard. And so the first thing I want to have is just compassion for myself when I’m trying to change a pattern. And then when I’m coaching someone, I encourage them to have compassion for themselves and I work with them patiently and calmly, but sometimes with my own self I might get a little frustrated. So taking that space to say, okay, this is hard, but my goal is to present clearly and compellingly and concisely when I am presenting my business case. So this is important and it’s worth working on. I think about just yesterday I tried to start a new habit and my goal was to read for an hour.
And yesterday I did it and I loved it and it was great. And I had a great day. I showed myself, I’m really in control of this. This morning that plan was the same, but there was some things that happened and I didn’t follow through, and it was so easy to fall back into that habit. So just as you said, as those neurons are fired together, they’re wired together. So we have to continually fire them together in order to build that new pathway. And the property or the protein is called myelin. It’s what connects those synapses. And every time we do something, a new myelin sheath is actually laid between those neurons. And it is so thin and so fragile. However, every time we do it, we get a little bit more. And I think the current science says if you want to start a new habit, you need about 40 repetitions for that to feel like home.
40 repetitions. Wow. That proves that whole idea that you need some time to develop these habits and or changes in your thinking pattern.
And I too, and a lot of the coaching work I do, I’m trying to help leaders level up their leadership ability. And in that it’s that ability to influence, connect with people. And it’s not about adding more technical skill, it’s adding the — some people think of it as a softer skill. I don’t think it’s soft at all. I think it’s hard to really intentionally change your leadership thinking so that you can change your behaviors toward effective leadership.
Exactly. So we define executive presence as the ability to engage, align, and inspire others to act. And sometimes it’s not even about adding something. Sometimes it’s about taking away some learning. Unlearning. When we look at the brain as a model, the reason why it becomes harder as we get older to learn a new language is because the brain starts pruning away anything that we don’t use. So as a newborn human, you can learn any language on the planet. Like I think that is so amazing. And then as you start to get comfortable in the one, two, three or 4 or 5 languages that you speak, those other neurons are like, oh, you don’t need it.
So the brain prunes that because it’s a very expensive mechanism to run. So I said that to say we can take that as a model, the things that are costing us that aren’t necessarily bringing benefit. Perhaps a leader might be prone to jump into action when they could really take a moment, take a pause, take a breath before doing something. Or maybe it’s a leader that always wants to have the answer, but they could really listen more in order to make their team feel heard and feel valued and appreciated. Those are very valuable skills to have when it comes to executive presence, and really bringing other people on board to align with your vision and to engage with whatever instructions you’ve provided.
Key Discussion Point 3: The Body-Mind Connection in Leadership
That’s an interesting angle to executive presence, and I like what you said there. Often it is about unlearning or reprogramming a thought or a behavior that you’ve developed. And one thing I will say, I think a lot of the leaders I work with — because I tend to work with middle and upper management — the vast majority of mine are in that middle tier, middle and upper, and they are still stuck in the execution and delivery mindset. So they’re very tactical oriented thinkers, and they’re trying to think about the opportunity at the higher level, but they’re trying to think about that old behavior of pulling along the transactional delivery.
And in fact, they’re being asked to think and do things at a more strategic level and bigger picture thinking. And that alone is very unsettling to them. And so their foundation is shaky. So the idea of — how do I create an executive presence when I don’t have a good foundation for it?
Yeah. So you mentioned that it’s a little unsettling. And one of the things that we deal with is anxiety in this sphere. And sometimes we’re walking around with a base level of anxiety that we don’t even realize. So I ask all my clients to do a breathing assessment. And your listeners can do this as they are on the call right now.
Place one hand on your heart. Place one hand on your abdomen and notice which hand moves first and which hand moves most. So ideally it would be the hand on your abdomen that moves first and moves most. But sometimes it’s the hand on our chest or ribcage which would be a sign of hyperventilation. So we walk around with these base levels of threat and our nervous system. And then something happens where we get moved into a different sphere and we’re asked to be more strategic rather than more transactional. And even though this is what we want cognitively, from a somatic standpoint, from the body standpoint, it might register as a threat as well.
So the first thing I encourage clients to do is remember that the body keeps the score. This is a great book by Bessel van der Kolk about just taking into account how the body is always with us. And in the business sphere, we think cognitively and we talk about ideas. The vessel where those ideas are happening and how we convey those ideas always go back to the body.
So the first step is to regulate. The next step would be to assess what are my values and how do those align with what I’m being asked to do. When we infuse meaning into what we’re doing, not only can we enjoy it a whole lot more, we’re more likely to stick with it, and especially if it is fulfilling something that is really, really important to us. So that already gives us a pathway forward that is more outwardly focused rather than inward focused.
That sense of introspection, where we’re feeling what’s going on the inside, is very valuable. And we’re also a really communal species that knows how to read the room, how to interpret others, and we as a species really do care for each other. And sometimes it’s hard to see with the politics going on, but we are generally primed to care for each other and to love each other. And when we are focused on that, there’s not as much time to be worried. As a performer, when I go out on stage and I think, okay, I’m going to be very generous today, these people have come a long way to hear me perform or hear me speak or hear me coach.
So I want to give as much as I can give to them as this gift. And then I’m focused on that and on them receiving it. It really changes the game completely, I found.
Key Discussion Point 4: Overcoming Limiting Beliefs
I think that’s a great point, Carl, and something that I think people do need to think about is that analysis of your own thinking about the opportunity. And we all in the coaching world, we are taught about and we learn about limiting beliefs that are the big roadblocks for people’s progress. When maybe you’re pre-programmed to say you’re not smart enough, you’re not fast enough, you’re not pretty enough, you’re not tall enough, whatever. And those things are horribly unfortunate. They’re messages that get implanted in our psyche and can be some of the biggest roadblocks to future progress. So really doing that analysis and that assessment of, is that really true? Is that something that I’ve proven? No, it’s not.
Let’s replace that with something that does have value and focus on that ability. You also talked about that idea of thinking about the audience in a more positive way. I’ve definitely heard it said, and in my earlier days I’m far more comfortable now speaking to an audience than I used to be. But you hear people talk about that idea of, if I’ve got to stand on a podium, I’m just frozen. But when you hear them talk about it, all of the statements they are making are all internal. They’re focused inwardly. What if people don’t think I’m smart enough? What if they realize I don’t know this subject? And I say, no. You got invited to speak. Somebody thinks you have value. Think about that outward impact you can have.
Yeah. So you picked up on the idea of these limiting beliefs. I think that’s such a powerful question when you ask yourself, is that so? And also recognizing that your thoughts are not necessarily your own. You use the word implanted and we interpret the world around us to survive. And so whatever — even if it was a damaging thought like I’m not good enough — well, that was a survival mechanism and that protected you in some way. And it gave you value in some way. Maybe that prevented you from speaking up and being mocked or speaking up and failing. And even if it was a survival mechanism at one point, recognizing that it is no longer serving you is so powerful, and recognizing that it might never have been true by asking, is that so? It’s also very powerful.
And then another question I like to encourage my clients to ask when I’m not around and they have to coach themselves: what else is true? So I’m going into this room. I’m at Hopkins. So it’s a big medical school. We’re presenting to doctors all the time, and I talk a lot about the anatomy and physiology of the body as a way to improve your executive presence. And so I’m talking about the body to the finest doctors in the world. What if I make a mistake? And then I can say, well, what else is true? What if I’m able to show the actual coordination of how it relates to the business case in a way that they’ve never thought of. So that could also be true. And then the doors are open. There’s so many possibilities when we go into that space of what else could be true. And that is exciting to me.
I agree with you. And I think that’s why the key word — limiting — of limiting beliefs is so powerful. Because when you begin to limit something, you are excluding other thoughts and other possibilities. And that question, what else is true, is equally powerful and informative. And to your point about the brain science, at least as I’ve learned to understand it, is that when we take in something and we realize that there’s a certain new truth that we should be thinking about.
That again adds to that repository of new information that you have intentionally tagged as good to know. Let’s add this to the thinking here. And again, we’re back to that neuroplasticity idea. And again, maybe not just in one passing assessment, but really in a more curious mode of saying, if that’s true, then maybe dot, dot, dot, you know, you’ve got other correlated ideas that go with that, and it could open a whole new world for you.
Key Discussion Point 5: The 12-Second Rule and Negativity Bias
Yeah. I was just reading some research about our brain and its negativity bias. So if something negative happens we register that right away and we remember it right away. I’m up there speaking. Somebody gave a look like they’re not interested. Ooh, I registered that right away. But something like you were just mentioning about the good things — oh, this was nice — it takes us 12 seconds in order for that to register and for that to become permanent.
So we see in all the ancient traditions of the world this idea of meditation. And we can use that ancient tradition and we can marry it now to the brain science. So if something good happens, if you take it for 12 seconds and you think about that feeling of that environment and you can make it very vivid — what you’re seeing, what you’re smelling, what you are hearing — something like, hey, Doug, you did a really good job today. And you really make it a memory. And you sit there and you meditate on it for 12 seconds. That gives you enough time for the hypothalamus to sync up and for that to become a lasting memory.
It takes intentionality around that. And sometimes it can even feel uncomfortable when people give us compliments. They say, oh, anybody could have done that. And we brush it away instead of basking in it for 12 seconds and saying thank you. And saying, thank you so much for saying that. That means a lot to me. It feels really good to hear you say that. I’m glad that that connected to you.
This was something that I hoped could bring light to you, and I hope that you could take it on further. Was that 12 seconds?
Yeah. Very good point. Well demonstrated. And you know, that goes directly with what my clients out there who are listening are going to remember — that we’ve talked about celebrating personal wins. You’re right. High performers tend to wave off any notion of celebrating a win because in their mind, well, that’s what I was supposed to do. Yeah, we hit the mark. We hit the goal. Good. Let’s move on. You know what’s next? And I encourage my clients — no, you have to give yourself some grace and some privilege to celebrate that win and recognize the effort.
Because part of that is one small element of maintaining a resiliency in a very tough world where things are moving fast, there’s a lot of ambiguity and uncertainty, and people get worn down. And resilience is that ability to refuel the tank while it’s running. And it’s not about maintaining the long race.
That’s what we call endurance. But resilience is recharging in motion, if you will. And I believe one of many methods to build resilience is to simply celebrate the win. Give yourself those 12 seconds to really meditate on a good accomplishment. Hopefully a little more, to really relish the reality that you did achieve something great, and maybe add to the reprogramming of those limiting beliefs.
Key Discussion Point 6: Planning for Resilience
You mentioned resilience and I like the idea of planning for refueling and not being surprised when we get knocked down, but instead having a plan, having a mantra to go to, having a checklist to look at, having a song that makes you feel good, that you know you can press play if it’s been a rough day because those days are coming for all of us.
There are so many challenges, and in the modern sphere, it seems that our work is this abyss of need. We can keep giving, giving, giving, giving. It’ll keep taking, taking, taking, taking. And there’s never a stop where it says, okay, that’s enough. So because we have to make that stop ourselves, we also have to make that refueling a part of the plan and not an accident. I think that is such a great point, Doug.
Well, in related to that is the whole notion that if you’re out there, whatever your work may be, most people are working for advancement. They want to get a raise. They want to get a promotion. So not only is it just the work they’re doing, but they’re doing it with an intent to ultimately be recognized and get a chance for that advancement.
But a lot of people, particularly this middle and upper tier that I deal with — and entrepreneurs, by the way — you’re grinding with a hope that you’re going to build a better tomorrow. And it is a grind and you’ve got to have that opportunity. And I like your idea of having a plan for resilience.
Exactly. So when I am going on stage there is plan A, B and C, and that is for the preparation, that is for the process, and that’s also for the aftercare. And that level of detail I think is what really distinguishes high performers from others. Because for high performers there are still the same challenges. They just have multiple means of achieving their goals.
Key Discussion Point 7: Defining YOUR Executive Presence
I like that. And I think that uniqueness about what the answer may be as to what each individual has to do — I think again it comes from a higher level of introspection to decide, take in data points, but ultimately decide what your zone may look like.
Absolutely. And one of the things that we really press for in this class is for everyone to come up with an individual definition of what executive presence means for you. It’s very tempting to look at this billionaire or that billionaire and say, well, that is successful. So that’s what I need to do. However, if we took on those qualities, it might come across as inauthentic and it might be exhausting to maintain over a long period of time.
What is actually generative and maybe even rewarding to hold over a long period of time are those values that are really important to you. And you can notice with your particular company that you’re working at now, or maybe where you would like to be in the future, the values in that position or that company, and you can align to those and choose to hold those dear over a long period of time. That can help to regenerate the spirit, that can help to give you energy, that can also help in showing those around you — particularly the stakeholders and decision makers — that you are indeed the person who would be fitting for that role, because you’re already displaying the values that they’ve demonstrated are important in that position.
I want to make a key distinction there. I agree with what you just said. I think the critical thing that people confuse — they miss the values demonstrated at those levels with behaviors that the former leader in that position exhibited. And I have seen it play out from time to time that individuals get promoted up to a senior level in a large company, and all of a sudden they start acting like the guy they replaced. Right. And people might not like the guy that they replaced.
And even though this individual got things done, I think you highlight a key distinction. You have to focus on the values that were achieved in that moment versus the behaviors that got them there.
Absolutely. So in acting with the Stanislavski technique, there is an objective, there’s an obstacle and there’s a tactic. And whereas the objective might be the same in that same position, the obstacles might be different. In fact, they will be different for a different person.
And the tactics that you choose have to really align with what your values are. You can lead with empathy, whereas somebody else led with terror, and you can get a much better result if that is what’s important to you, and that is how you want to be seen in the world.
Yeah. I like your idea — back to the basic question of executive presence — of challenging each individual to begin the work on defining their own framework. I do that at the at the core level of leadership beliefs. You know, as a leader, what do you want to be about? You know, what do you want the story that other people say about working for and with you to look like? And most people have never explored that question. They have done something I call riding the wave. They got their job, they got promoted. They got promoted again and again and again. And they’ve taken advantage of the opportunities that have been given to them.
But they never really stop and say, wait a minute. I’m in a leadership role now. What do I really want to represent and what are the values I can hang on to? And I think that, again, is some very key foundational work that needs to be done so that you have a place to come from. When you start defining your executive presence, it’s kind of like, okay, if I intend to be this, this and this as a leader, how can I make that show up in my presence?
Practical Advice: Seek Feedback and Know What You’re Amplifying
Yeah, it’s also really helpful if this is the journey and you are committed to self-reflection, to ask those around you, how do I come off? When we had that crisis back in the first quarter, what did you think about the way that I handled it? And providing a space for that as well. As a performer, we’re constantly getting feedback from judges and sometimes instant feedback, and a lot of the performers in the business sphere have not had that luxury.
And sometimes I think it’s really, really tough because there’s a lot of business speak — ese where we kind of go around the issue but rarely speak directly. And so creating a safe space for your colleagues to reflect back can be really, really helpful. And in some spheres they refer to this as a 360 approach. So there can be a formalized approach to it, or it can be very informal, but knowing what you are projecting — or I like to use the word amplifying because we’re always amplifying something. Sometimes we’re just not quite aware of what we’re amplifying — that can be really helpful information in order to make shifts going forward.
Closing Thoughts
Very good point, Carl. And I’m looking at the clock here. I feel like you and I could go on with this for quite some time. But it is time to put a bow on this episode. Tell people about your book and also the best way to get in touch with you.
Absolutely. So the book is called The Presence Principle: Embodying Executive Presence to Lead with Impact. I wrote it with my co-author, Alexa Chilcott, after we did a course that was very popular and started selling out. We are one of the only in-person executive presence courses here at the Carey Business School executive Education. So we get leaders from all over the world, and we were having this conversation with them. And at the end of our three day course, the question was, well, what do I do now? What do I do now? What do I do now? So we wrote the book and each chapter has an interactive part at the end, so you can continue the journey with the type of introspective questions and the reflective aspect of leadership that can really help you get to the next level.
If you would like to reach out to me personally, please find me on LinkedIn. Carl DuPont. DMA — Doctor of Musical Arts. And if you send me a DM with the word voice, I will send you a PDF that has tips, tricks, and truth for how you can make sure that your voice is your ace when you are going into any situation, and that you can speak with confidence and clarity.
I love it, Carl. I really appreciate that message. And folks, as always, we will have that link information in our show notes. So please do check out the book and Carl’s other work. But for now, Carl, thank you one last time. Really appreciate your insights here.
Thank you so much. This was a pleasure, Doug.
And, folks, this is the part of the show I’d like to remind you — we do have a video archive of all of our shows over on YouTube channel by the same name. Leadership Powered by Common Sense. Go over there. Join the channel if you will. Check out our library and give me a note about any topics, thoughts, or guests that you might recommend. Maybe you’re interested in being a guest. I would love to hear from you and we can talk about that opportunity. But with that, I’m going to sign off. Say goodbye. Go out there. Make it a great day.
Meet Our Guest
Dr. Carl DuPont guides professionals in reconnecting to their authentic voice through a transformative approach that bridges performance expertise with scientific precision. As Director of the Kennedy Center’s Washington National Opera Institute Program, Associate Professor of Voice at Johns Hopkins University’s Peabody Institute, and Executive Education faculty at Carey Business School, Carl brings rare interdisciplinary insight to leadership development.
His methodology integrates his experience as an international opera performer, published scholar, improv actor, Certified Neurosomatic Intelligence Educator, and LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® facilitator. Carl’s scholarly work appears in Oxford University Press and respected journals including The Laryngoscope and the Voice and Speech Review.
Coaching clients range from Fortune 200 executives to international soloists at the Metropolitan Opera House and “The President’s Own” U.S. Marine Band. Carl has performed at Carnegie Hall, the Kennedy Center, El Palacio de Bellas Artes, Leipzig Opera House, and the Salzburg Festival. He is the founder of DuPont Consulting, LLC and holds the Certificate in Management Development from Johns Hopkins Carey Business School.
LinkedIn: Dr. Carl DuPont
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