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Episode 525: The Neuroscience of Ethical Persuasion, with Thomas Trautmann
Introduction
Hey, everybody. You know, it’s been said you make an impression in 10s. And my guest expands that window a little bit. He gave us 11 seconds to make that right impression.
Today we’re going to dive into that very important topic of making yourself memorable to those around you, those you’re trying to impact and influence. My guest is Thomas Trautmann. Thomas, welcome to the show.
Yeah. Thank you for having me, I appreciate it. Yeah.
Meet the Guest: Unforgettable in 11 Seconds
Give us the kind of the the short version of your focal message that 11 seconds to be memorable.
Yeah. The idea is to be unforgettable in 11 seconds. That’s based on how the human brain makes decisions.
So what I do is that I take neuroscience, and I make the tools that you can use every day based on something I call ethical persuasion. And when you implement that properly, the brain in front of you, because you are going to make that brain great, that brain in front of you is going to remember you.
From Computer Engineer to Artificial Neural Networks
What what led you into this area? I know in your resume you’ve worked for some global brands that people are definitely going to relate to. How did you how did you get into this work?
Oh, it’s it’s it it’s my career that took me to that. I would say I was always interested in what was going in the brain. You know, I’m originally a computer engineer and scientist, and at that time, a few years back, we were still writing code and programming and doing stuff like that.
So when you were reading some code, it was the intelligence of someone that you were reading. You know how that person was thinking. So that triggered something, I don’t know. That made me pay attention to it.
That’s how I started with artificial intelligence. Did my PhD in artificial neural networks. So how do you take stuff that’s working in the brain and how you convert it into models that are that are working?
The Motorcycle Tour Company That Grew 400%
And I think the turn was when we founded our very first company with my wife was about high end motorcycle tours.
We ended up, like many entrepreneurs, you know, sitting in front of our bank account and seeing that the numbers were not growing and that if it was keeping that way, we have to find a new job, you know. So I know if if stars align or something like that, I don’t know.
So documentary about neuromarketing, which is the implementation of neuroscience into marketing and sales, and we start implementing some of the things we could here. And, well, it didn’t happen overnight, of course, but after a while we saw 400% growth. And the BMW, which is a major motorcycle brand, came to us asking us to organise tours for their clients.
So because we changed something, in fact, instead of being rational, you know, explaining that the motorcycle tour is going to be 800km going on those roads, we stop at this hotel, blah, blah, blah. We started talking about the the perfumes you are smelling on the road. You know, the trees, how the trees are changing.
The flowers are changing. My wife wrote about what is it to be a passenger, you know, seeing the scenery passing by all the people on this beach and you are seeing on the motorcycle and stuff like that.
I talked about compared motorcycle riding to music. You know that you can ride a motorcycle playing jazz or classical music or rock and roll or whatever, and that attracted people. So instead of being rational, we became more emotional.
Getting Fired on Purpose
And life being life. I joined the company. We had a lot of competition, and we were looking to to find a way to improve our marketing and say, hey, I heard about neuromarketing. Let’s try that.
So I asked the company that I saw in that documentary to come and help us. And it went so well that I told you guys, okay, you know what? I’m going to join you now. I would like to become one of your partners.
So they said, well, Thomas, we cannot hire our clients employees. I said, no problem, I will get fired. So I got fired and joined them.
Why Neuromarketing Wasn’t Enough
And so I started with neuromarketing and that. And neuromarketing works well. But each time I was giving you workshop, something was missing, you know.
And one evening during conversation, it came out that, in fact, humanity is missing. Even though neuromarketing is about the brain and helps you trigger stuff in the brain. The people who are learning it were not getting something for themselves. It was first for their company, not for them.
So that’s why I said, okay, I have to change that. So I stopped neuromarketing. I created my own model, which is called the Make me great, make me great system.
It’s based on the formula which is I call the the ethical persuasion formula. Or in fact, you learn for yourself to become unforgettable because you make the brain in front of you. Great. Because now we know exactly how a human brain makes decisions. That’s the short version.
A Powerful Instrument We All Carry
I find it fascinating. I’ve done a lot of my own reading in in neuroscience and Brain function, and I actually involved some of that in my coaching.
but I’m sure it’s at a very elemental level. But nonetheless, I’m fascinated by the possibilities because if you just turn a little bit of attention to the brain science phenomenon, you realize what a powerful instrument we have, a powerful tool that can really, really change things.
It can change the way you personally look at the world and your situation, and it can certainly influence those around you. Where do you typically start with. Well, let’s talk about your formula. I’m I’m intrigued to know what that formula says.
The Ethical Persuasion Formula: Subconscious Frustration
By the formula. There are four parameters. The very first parameter is called subconscious frustration.
So it’s based on the fact that it has been scientifically demonstrated, not by me, by people way smarter than me. This is the guy who got the Nobel Prize for that. That the human brain. And I’d like your audience to to write that down. We don’t make rational decisions.
97% of people are still convinced, and are going to try to persuade someone by talking rationally about the product, the service, the features, blah blah blah went front.
What the Primal Brain Really Wants
In fact, the part of the brain in front of you that makes the decisions has to me, it has been demonstrated. It’s called the primal brain. And that primal brain, which is the lower part of the human brain, not the upper part, not the rational one. That primal brain is a survival tool.
It cares about one and only one person on Earth itself. And it screams that you make me great. That’s why my system is called that way. It’s making me great. I don’t care about you. I couldn’t care less about you, you know?
So stop talking about your product services. Brand yourself. Whatever. Talk about me. It’s about me, me, me.
35,000 Decisions a Day — and You Notice 70
So the subconscious frustration is inside of that brain, a problem that it needs to solve. We make approximately. Each human being 35000 decisions per day. Be huge and you are only aware, slightly aware of 0.2%. That’s 70 decisions in your day.
Maybe that you are aware of that trigger some rational process. You know, I bought a smartwatch, you know. Okay, I have the time, but I have the weather forecast. Oh, I can see my my activity. Oh I see. And blah blah blah blah blah.
It rationalize, I rationalize the decision that has been made at the primal level that was to buy that smartwatch, because somehow it solved a subconscious frustration and those subconscious frustrations because they in the private brain, are deeply human.
Selling a CRM the Wrong Way — and the Right Way
So for for years to understand, let’s say I’m selling a CRM, a piece of software to someone who runs a company? And who is that software?
I could say, as everyone would do. Okay. We are company ABC. We are selling the software. You can handle 10,000 clients with it, and it will allow you to send 5000 emails per day. And la la la la la la la.
My primary brain doesn’t care about it, but it cares that you tell me. Hey, Thomas, if you if you get that, you would be home every day at five and you would spend more time with your kids. You would no more work on the weekends. And that divorce your wife is talking about is gone.
So that’s the way to talk to your private brain, because the subconscious frustration could be, I need to show that I’m the best, that I’m the strongest, that I’m the most beautiful, that whatever. It’s human. It’s not business related.
And that’s the most difficult part. Every of my clients has is to understand that. And most would say, Thomas, I cannot walk in a the room and say that to her. To a CEO, to an entrepreneur said, yes, you can. That’s, that’s that’s what makes you unforgettable in 11 seconds.
The First 11 Seconds: What to Say When You Walk In
So how do you advise walking in, you know, classic scenario? I’m sure salespeople out there that may be listening or going, ooh, you know, maybe I could do some of this and be more effective.
So they’re showing up for their first ever appointment with a new prospect, and you want to make that memorable impression right away. What do you typically explain to them that must be done in that in that first 11 seconds.
Well, the very first thing is don’t talk about yourself. Don’t talk about your company. Don’t talk about your products, about your brand. Okay.
You can directly jump in. By I mean, of course you can do a greeting because you are a nice person. You are well educated person. Okay? But then it’s all about them. It’s all about them.
So if you did your job properly, you know what the subconscious frustrations are. Because we have more than one, we can use more than one in our system. So you can address it directly.
The Power of the “What If” Question
Yeah. Okay. Hey, what if you would get home every day at five and then silence that the what if question is fantastic. Because what if you could get home at five already means in my brain I’m not going home at five. That hurts me. That’s my subconscious frustration.
What if that’s my brain starting to run the movie of oh, I’m home at five and so on, but I don’t leave enough time for that brain to keep thinking about it. Then I come up with something else.
So suddenly I become the guy who knows how to get you home at five has nothing to do with my product. My product is just the vector to get there.
“We Trust You” — One Hour Without Mentioning the Product
and just tell you in the coaching session, when the coaching series of coaching sessions with the clients employees one sales guide after force for sessions, I think came back and said, Thomas is crazy.
I went to a client exactly as you define Duke, never met before, never talked to, etc. first meeting. No, I didn’t speak about myself. I didn’t tell anything about the product, the services, the brand, nothing. After one hour of them speaking, mostly they said, we are going to work with you because we trust you.
The Trade Show Experiment: The Man Who Never Talked About Himself
That reminds me, there was a study done a number of years ago at a classic professional tradeshow networking event, and and they staged one person to go into the event with a single goal of engaging as many people as they could. but never say anything about themselves.
Always turn the. Any questions they were asked. Turn it back on the person they were talking to, and get them to talk more about themselves than at the end of that evening there was a survey taken. They asked the crowd who was the most influential person you met tonight? And they said, it was that guy.
Yeah, yeah.
And he had never said anything about what he did or who he was or anything, because it was all a setup. But it, it, it proved that concept that that primal brain is really thinking about me, me, me. You know, I want to be safe. I want to be good. I want to be great.
And when you as a speaker take off talking about yourself, your product, your your opportunity, your offer. People really don’t care about that. They need those other, more basic needs addressed so that they can go to the next level with whatever they’re thinking.
The First Decision They Make Is Whether to Listen
Yeah, especially when you speak at the first thing that you want is you want them to make the decision to listen to you. That’s the first decision they should take. Right.
And a lot of people are you know, it’s called loss of phobia. The fear of speaking in public. So bringing 70 to 90% of of business people suffer from it. It’s not a disease, okay. Some people have a real psychological problem with that. But there are very few.
But most people have that because it’s their own primal brain saying, oh, what are they going to think about myself? Well, they don’t think anything about yourself because they couldn’t care less. So stop. Stop being scared of that. You know, it’s getting them to listen to you.
0.3 Seconds to Decide If You’re Likable
Yeah, it’s pretty crazy. But, for example, do you know how long it takes for human brain to decide if the person it sees for the first time is likable or not?
Oh, I think it’s a fraction of a second. I think the brain works that fast.
Yeah, it’s 0.3 seconds.
Well.
In 0.3 seconds it says, okay. I like Google. I’m not that guy. We have a problem.
You may be the nicest, smartest guy ever, but my brain decides on some features. Physiological signals you are sending me. I don’t like it. It’s not rational. It’s not rational. Yeah.
Fight, Flight, or Freeze
And it’s tied to that one phenomenon I think most people are familiar with. It’s that fight, flight or freeze mode that that primal brain triggers. Yeah, it’s. I see something or somebody. I have to make that quick decision. Am I going to survive this moment?
And if that means I like you, I’ll. I’ll continue to engage or. No, I’m not interested. Shut down. Turn off. Go away. That’s that’s that freeze out mode that it’s not really a fight. You didn’t really walk away. You just shut down. Yeah, yeah.
A Very Old Beast That Stopped Evolving
Yeah. The problem is that the primal brain, it’s a very old beast, right? It’s a few hundreds of million years old. We share it with most other species on Earth. Okay, at least mammal species.
and it’s stopped evolving a long time ago, while the human brain stopped evolving around 100,000, 50,000 years ago. So it’s still running processes that were making sense when we were in caves, you know, and you mentioned fight, fight flight is one of my beloved, processes.
Because fight flight, as you mentioned, is makes a lot of sense when you are running naked in the, in the, in the savanna or so on and hunting something or running away from an enemy. You need it, right? Because you need to be fast. You need to be accurate. You need to be to protect yourself. Your body needs to do specific things.
When fight flight gets triggered, there is a shot of adrenaline. If you move faster, your heart rate accelerates, your breathing rate accelerates. You get cortisone shot in your body so that you feel pain. Less blood is removed from your limbs so that you bleed less in case you get hurt. 100,000 years ago. Perfect sense right?
“We Need to Talk” — Modern Triggers for an Ancient System
Nowadays it’s still there, it’s still running. And it starts with a few words. You know when your spouse comes home and says, we need to talk, you have a fight flight, you know, or someone says, no, you know, you say you make a cold call and they say no. It triggers a fight or flight process.
It’s absolutely crazy that all those things are happening in your body and in your brain. So that’s a very, very special situation. So you have to make sure that you protect them from triggering the flight flight process. And your own brain will trigger it too. By the way.
Why Humans Are So Bad at Handling Adrenaline
So. And we are very bad. Humans are very bad at handling adrenaline. You know, I love horses. I have a horse and I can see horses are preys. They live in permanent fear. So they can get adrenaline just like that. But if you get a horse, a horse who is scared may jump. And two seconds later it’s eating grass again.
when you have a fight flight triggered. We have a shot at adrenaline next time it happens. Look at how long it takes, how long it takes you to to calm down and so on to get rid of that adrenaline. It takes an awful lot of time often.
And you can be driving home and you are still, you know, remembering and you are making the movie again and again. And how much you would have killed that guy who said no to your offer, blah, blah, blah, all those things. And then you have that taste in your mouth. You know, there’s very specific taste to adrenaline. It’s very funny. So yeah, it’s a tough one.
The One Word That Triggers Fight or Flight: “But”
I use a little piece of advice, and with my clients in their effort to push an agenda or a strategy forward, often, you know, they have a position in their mind, a vision of what they want to execute. And there may be a stakeholder that says, no, no, no, no, I want to go another direction. So you get into this debate about the best way.
And in most modern business, the speech pattern says, I hear what you said, but, you know, here’s my thing. Dot dot dot. And it’s that but conjunctive that has been studied. And they’ve actually done brainwave mapping that in that moment of that heightened discussion, the word but triggers that primal brain to go into that fight or flight mode. So now the conflict amps up a level. It it increases emotionally.
So I tell leaders what they need to say is and I heard what you said and there’s something else we need to talk about. You know, keep keep it together. And that keeps the conversation flowing. It keeps it on whatever, hopefully productive level you started with so that you can not accidentally trigger the other person’s fight flight.
Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. That’s a good one.
Retraining Your Own Brain: The “You” Language
And there, you know, there, there there’s other things that can be those triggers. So that that brings up the question, Thomas. What are some of the things you advise people to think about on, on kind of retraining their own brains for that make me great.
One thing that always sounds super easy and I always have it’s free advice that everyone can use. Is this something that I call the new language?
Now, when you drop an email, make it about them. When you make a call, it’s about them. I mean, after 1020 calls with a person, you can talk about yourself, of course, but in the first series of call, it’s all about them.
“I Would Like… I…” — The Workshop Moment
And it may sound easy. Oh yeah, I can say that. I mean, once in a workshop, I asked my my trainees to to rewrite an email, they would have written, you know, but write it in the new language.
There was a gentleman you were starting to write. We corrected a few things, and then everyone had to stand in front of the group and read the email. He stands up. He holds a sheet of paper with the whole thing written in the new language, and he says, I would like. I. He couldn’t resist because that’s your own time.
And brain wants to demonstrate to itself that it’s right to do what it’s doing. But the problem is you have to keep it on a leash because you are now talking to someone else.
The Simple Email Fix
So an email is easier when you write your email. You just stop. You read it again and everything there is ie you change the sentence so it becomes you.
I am sending you this documentation. No, you are receiving this documentation. It says exactly the same thing just in the new language.
Why the Primal Brain Always Wins the Race
So email is easy on default or when you are talking to someone, it’s a bit tough because the biggest problem is the prime and brain is super fast. Okay, the rational brain is 200 times slower.
So with those two things work at the same speed. Life would be super easy. No one would need me. The problem is that beast down there is fast.
And that the the USP, the unique selling proposition of the primal brain is it’s better to be stupid and alive than smart and dead. So we don’t make smart decisions. We make primal decisions. Okay.
So yeah.
Cognitive Biases: Old Software Still Running
And you cannot control it. You know, for yourself. You can. If you make a decision, then you can sit down and start to reflect. And if you didn’t act on the decision, okay, then you may be able, by thinking rationally and driving rational arguments in there to change the decision.
But the problem is that the primal brain because it stopped evolving 100,000 years ago with all those old processes, is running and is using what we call cognitive biases. And there have been 100 more than 180 identified. Now it’s better to get something now than more later. That’s all those all those common sentences they come from that.
Watching the Primal Brain in Child Development
You know, as you’re saying this I’m thinking about I’m I’m at a stage of life now. I, I had my children and then they’ve had children. So now I’m a grandfather and I’ve been fascinated watching the grandchildren grow.
And really, I think you can see this playing out in child development because at the earliest age everything is about them. I’m hungry, I’m tired, I’m I’m nerdy. I, you know, clean me, feed me, you know, hold me.
And even, you know, when they get up into the more relatable ages, you know, six, seven, eight years old, there’s still a whole lot of me, you know, I need, I want, I need and and you as an adult, you you try to tell them, you know, well, the world’s not about you. You know, you you need to start reading the room. You need to start learning that there’s other people in the world, but their primal brain is which is first to develop in a human is telling them no, it’s it really is about me.
You know, I and and you see this playing out with, with young kids and depending on where you might be in your parenting approach, it can get incredibly frustrating, you know, to it’s like, no, it’s not about you. But that’s how they’re thinking. That’s what their brains are telling them.
Seven Seconds and a Two-Year-Old
It’s a very good point because I always explain my, my, my, my clients are because people try to write, you know, their selling proposition, their, their the elevator pitch or stuff like that for 30s one minute I said, no, you have seven seconds and you are talking to your two year old child seven seconds, because that’s the time window which the primal brain is living.
So the past is stored somewhere, the future. It doesn’t know what the future is. It doesn’t know it exists. The future is managed new prefrontal cortex, which, by the way, is the last thing ending development in the human brain around 20, 22 years of age. That’s why. No need to explain to a teenager what will you do in the future. It has no idea what the future is about.
So back to my thing. If you can explain in seven seconds to your two year old child what you’re doing without that child running away crying, or the police coming after you, you may have a chance.
Yeah. Yeah.
When you say that to, a lot of people are in panic because we are building integrated systems that allow the growth of the. I mean, you think a three year old child. We get that? No way.
Can AI Do This?
Yeah. Yeah. This is so fascinating. And I and part of what’s been formulating in, in my logical brain is as we look at deploying AI, you know, based on what I think we’ve said here, my experience, I don’t think AI is anywhere close to addressing this part of connecting with, you know, human to human eye.
You know, it can write content. And I’ve even I’ve even engineered some prompts that say, let’s use some neuro linguistics, you know, let’s, let’s, let’s take advantage of those neural. The neural science part of the brain to reword you know, this message accordingly.
But when I think about it, and probably it’s a statement on my prompt engineering more than anything, but I haven’t gotten a result that gets there. You know it. It doesn’t craft that message that that that truly human engaging that you statement. It really doesn’t get there.
AI Is Only as Good as the Data You Give It
Yeah. It takes time for it to learn. It has to learn a lot. AI is just as good as the data. You provide it. You know, it’s mathematics based on mathematics. You know, you give an input, you expect an output, and then it works on delta.
If you give too much of the input, it will be locked on that input. That’s why you have to change chat threads from time to time, because if not, it learns the thread and says it. You know when they say it hallucinates and they say, no, you’re wrong. No, you’re wrong. But it still keeps hallucinating because it has not taken the path. It’s learning and learning. Learning the same thing again and again. Right.
That’s one of the problems. So you have to change the switch to explain and so on. But yeah, no AI is not going to give you decisions. It’s going to make rational calculations, assumptions. But we make decisions based on so many things.
Descartes’ Error and Emotional Variation
You know it’s and there is also a there is a very fundamental book that people should read which is called Descartes Error by Antonio Damasio. He wrote it in 1995, and he is part of the people who demonstrated that you cannot make a decision without an emotional variation, not one emotion.
You have two emotions, and you have to drive from one emotional state to the next emotional state. And that’s very complex. If you don’t know from where they go, where they come from and where they go.
You know what? If you could be home at five every day. That’s an emotional variation. Is it that simple? What if. Questions? As explained before, I put you down because I show you that you are not getting home again tonight at five. But you can see how fantastic it will be.
That’s an emotional variation. You need that. You need many more things to to drive a decision. But it’s part of all those things and that’s human.
Closing Thoughts and How to Connect with Thomas
Yeah. Well, Thomas, this has been great. We’re about up on time for today. Tell people the best way to get in touch with you. If they would like to know more about your work.
Well, the easiest is to go on the website at happy-brains.com or they can also find me mostly on LinkedIn where I’m the guy with the brain. So the bald guy with the brain. So.
I love it. Well again, thank you for this. And as always folks, we’re going to have those links in our show notes. So do hop down. Check that out. Thomas’s website has some great information, and now that I’ve heard more of his story, I can really see how it’s applied in what he does present, even starting with his own website. So check that out.
I do also want to remind you that we have a video version of this show on YouTube channel by the same name, Leadership Powered by Common Sense. Go over there. Please subscribe to the channel and leave us some comments and feedback. Let us know if you’ve got a topic or a guest you’d like to recommend. We’d love to hear from you. But with that, we’re going to wrap up. Say goodbye. Go out there. Make it a great day.
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